INFO-VAX Sun, 13 Apr 2008 Volume 2008 : Issue 207 Contents: Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Maximum IDE disk size for DS10L ? Re: Maximum IDE disk size for DS10L ? Re: System Programming Resources for Alpha Architecture The Minimum You Need to Know About Service Oriented Architecture Re: VMS advertising ! Re: VMS advertising ! Re: Why not SCSI? Why not SCSI? (was:Re: Maximum IDE disk size for DS10L ?) Re: Why not SCSI? (was:Re: Maximum IDE disk size for DS10L ?) Re: Why not SCSI? (was:Re: Maximum IDE disk size for DS10L ?) Re: Why not SCSI? (was:Re: Maximum IDE disk size for DS10L ?) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 13 Apr 2008 06:56:59 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Message-ID: <4801aebb$0$25057$607ed4bc@cv.net> In article , Roger Ivie writes: >On 2008-04-13, Arne Vajhøj wrote: >> Tom Linden wrote: >>> On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 18:22:43 -0700, Arne Vajhøj wrote: >>>> Is writing a device driver in another HLL than C supported on OpenVMS ? >>> >>> Firstly I would not characterize C as a HLL, >> >> Many people consider anything above assembler for HLL. > >Trick question on Alpha. AFAIK, the language choices for a driver are C >and MACRO-32. Since MACRO-32 is a compiler on Alpha and Itanium, does it >count as assembler or HLL? > >I don't think Alpha assembly drivers are supported. I fiddled with it a >bit many years ago, but decided MACRO-32 was much more convenient; I had >a really simple driver that could have gotten into and out of most of >its routines in less code than the standard MACRO-32 prologue/epilogue, >UNTIL I realized that some of my arguments might not be longword >aligned. That's when I decided MACRO-32 was good enough. > >On Itanium, I'm just starting to get to the point where an E/I in ANA/CRA >isn't total gibberish. C'mon. It is not that foreign. I didn't find it any more difficult than it was to take the step from VAX to Alpha which was quite easy to do IMHO. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 10:45:52 +0200 From: Michael Kraemer Subject: Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Message-ID: Arne Vajhøj schrieb: > And some are done for free by developers having a day job > doing end user software. I can't believe that too many developers are eligible for this kind of scenario. Somebody developing software 8+ hours a day for a living would hardly spend another 8 hours developing software for free. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 10:52:05 +0200 From: Michael Kraemer Subject: Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Message-ID: Tom Linden schrieb: > On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 15:30:43 -0700, Michael Kraemer > wrote: >> >> I think at that point in time IBM had already a PL/I product for NT. >> > No, they hadn't I think they had. I remember a colleague of mine porting a PL/I app from dead end VMS to NT around 1998. And I think the compiler was an IBM product. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 13:16:17 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Message-ID: In article , Michael Kraemer wrote: > Arne Vajhøj schrieb: > > > It was 20 years ago. > > > > The software was probably OK back then. > > > > But DEC could not have produced VAXstations to compete with > > those PC thingies price wise. > > Decent PCs weren't cheap either in those days. > And they had no OS ( unless you identify > the M$ floppy controller aka MS-DOS as an OS ). > VAXstations OTOH were ridiculously overprized > compared to their RISC counterparts. I the mid-1990s I had a customer who had bought some well configured IBM PS/2s with OS/2 for a project which never came to fruition. I was surprised when I was told what these had cost - they were definitely in the price region of what VAXstation 2000s had been. -- Paul Sture Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks: http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 05:29:18 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 20:59:19 -0700, Arne Vajhøj wrote: > Tom Linden wrote: >> On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 18:22:43 -0700, Arne Vajhøj wrote: >>> Tom Linden wrote: >>>> On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 05:46:30 -0700, Bob Willard >>>> wrote: >>>>> 2.C, in its place, is pretty good. In particular, when C is used >>>>> for stuff >>>>> that would otherwise have been written in assembly language, C is >>>>> IMHO >>>>> just dandy. Have you had good luck writing device drivers in >>>>> PL/I? >>>> Maybe I am more familiar with C than you are with PL/I? >>>> I haven't had a need to do so, but I easily could, and have done so >>>> years ago >>>> for unix, including replacing some portions of the kernel. The tape >>>> driver >>>> on Primos was written in Fortran, BTW. >>> >>> Is writing a device driver in another HLL than C supported on OpenVMS ? >> Firstly I would not characterize C as a HLL, > > Many people consider anything above assembler for HLL. > >> secondly don't know what >> you >> mean by supported. If I write a device driver that is my concern not >> HP's > > Consider: supported = documented. > > I am not a driver person. Far from. But as I understand it then there > are quite a few things you can not do in a driver and there are > documentation for C about what you can use of C without breaking > any of the rules. Does similar documentation exist in the PL/I > documentation or in the VMS documentation or in a book for PL/I ? > > Even if the docs does not exist then you may still be able to > write a driver in PL/I because you know what it does, but that > does not cut it as supported. If there is a SDL description of the interface, then it should be easy, otherwise translating a C prototype to PL/I is trivial. > > Arne > -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 14:16:55 +0000 (UTC) From: m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) Subject: Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Message-ID: In article , "P. Sture" writes: rparts. > I the mid-1990s I had a customer who had bought some well configured IBM > PS/2s with OS/2 for a project which never came to fruition. I was > surprised when I was told what these had cost - they were definitely in > the price region of what VAXstation 2000s had been. Well, a PS/2 machine *is* a decent box. They still have some value e.g. on eBay (I"m looking for one to load AIX 1.3 :-) whereas ordinary PCs of that time are simply junk. And they are probably faster than most VAXen out there. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 11:56:28 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Message-ID: <48022d28$0$90268$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Roger Ivie wrote: > On 2008-04-13, Arne Vajhøj wrote: >> Tom Linden wrote: >>> On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 18:22:43 -0700, Arne Vajhøj wrote: >>>> Is writing a device driver in another HLL than C supported on OpenVMS ? >>> Firstly I would not characterize C as a HLL, >> Many people consider anything above assembler for HLL. > > Trick question on Alpha. AFAIK, the language choices for a driver are C > and MACRO-32. Since MACRO-32 is a compiler on Alpha and Itanium, does it > count as assembler or HLL? Good question. From a general programming perspective I would say that it is not a HLL, because it really is an assembler language. But in this specific context it can be argued that one indeed need some guarantees about what the Macro-32 compiles actually does. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 17:55:40 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Message-ID: In article , m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) wrote: > In article , "P. Sture" > writes: > rparts. > > > I the mid-1990s I had a customer who had bought some well configured IBM > > PS/2s with OS/2 for a project which never came to fruition. I was > > surprised when I was told what these had cost - they were definitely in > > the price region of what VAXstation 2000s had been. > > Well, a PS/2 machine *is* a decent box. > They still have some value e.g. on eBay > (I"m looking for one to load AIX 1.3 :-) > whereas ordinary PCs of that time are simply junk. > And they are probably faster than most VAXen out there. Ah, that makes sense, and I didn't realise they could run AIX... -- Paul Sture Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks: http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 11:59:24 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Message-ID: <48022dd7$0$90268$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> JF Mezei wrote: > Michael Kraemer wrote: >> VAXstations OTOH were ridiculously overprized >> compared to their RISC counterparts. > > Replace the word "ridiculously" with "artificially". > > DEC suffered from the "must not allow our high margin customers from > starting to buy more powerful and cheaper systems from us". They never > thought about attracting more new customers to compensate for the high > marghin customers buying cheaper systems from DEC. > > So those high margin customers ended up buying smaller, more powerful > and cheaper systems from companies DEC refused to admit competed against > itself. (like compaq/microsoft) > > DEC had had many opportunities from the early 1980s to the late 1980s to > really make it big. They missed them. Miseed the boat and were left behind. No doubt that they had high margins. But my guess is that the production costs were also higher. VAX'es was build to last for decades and did (still do in some cases). PC's are a use and throw away commodity. Nobody really cares if the parts start to fail after 4 years of 5x8 usage. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 12:05:48 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Message-ID: <48022f58$0$90268$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Michael Kraemer wrote: > Arne Vajhøj schrieb: >> And some are done for free by developers having a day job >> doing end user software. > > I can't believe that too many developers are eligible > for this kind of scenario. > Somebody developing software 8+ hours a day for a living > would hardly spend another 8 hours developing software for free. Maybe not 8 hours a day. But it does happen at a scale that are becoming significant in the industry. Not all open source development are funded by IBM, SUN, Novell, Google, Yahoo etc. (or done at universities). Arne ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 16:34:52 +0000 (UTC) From: m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) Subject: Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available Message-ID: In article , "P. Sture" writes: > > Ah, that makes sense, and I didn't realise they could run AIX... > they do, but it's not quite AIX as we know it. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 04:37:38 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Maximum IDE disk size for DS10L ? Message-ID: Just found out that some/many circa 1999 machines have IDE (now called ATA) interfaces that only see the first 128 gigs of drives. Since the DS10L is also circa 1998/1999, does anyone know if it also has a disk size limit for the IDE (now called ATA) interface ? Can anyone confirm that it is safe to put a larger disk if the hardware only reports 128 gigs available ? (aka, won't overwrite data etc). ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 09:01:00 -0400 From: "Stanley F. Quayle" Subject: Re: Maximum IDE disk size for DS10L ? Message-ID: <4801CBCC.4715.DB8FF06@infovax.stanq.com> On 13 Apr 2008 at 4:37, JF Mezei wrote: > Can anyone confirm that it is safe to put a larger disk if the hardware > only reports 128 gigs available ? (aka, won't overwrite data etc). Don't know if it's "safe", but I have a DPWS 500au with a 200 GB disk that's been working fine for several years. It reports 268435455 blocks (131072 MB). --Stan Quayle Quayle Consulting Inc. ---------- Stanley F. Quayle, P.E. N8SQ Toll free: 1-888-I-LUV-VAX 8572 North Spring Ct., Pickerington, OH 43147 USA stan-at-stanq-dot-com http://www.stanq.com/charon-vax.html "OpenVMS, when downtime is not an option" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 12:46:42 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: System Programming Resources for Alpha Architecture Message-ID: <480238ee$0$90265$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> JF Mezei wrote: > Arne Vajhøj wrote: >> No - developers are (or should be) paid to produce readable and >> maintainable code - not to demonstrate their wizard capabilities. > > In what universe/century do you live in ? > > When you look at web developpers, it is very clear that they are paid to > demonstrate their capabilities to use every possible overly complex > trick to simulate a very simple HTML functions (such as the submit > button that is all to often overriden by some complex javascript). If they run JavaScript at submit for no good reason, then they are no doing their job. But in the AJAX world it often makes sense to run JavaScript at submit. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 09:14:08 -0700 (PDT) From: yyyc186 Subject: The Minimum You Need to Know About Service Oriented Architecture Message-ID: <6d5d1e8b-d932-4501-a515-cf34aa2d7bc3@e67g2000hsa.googlegroups.com> Logikal Solutions announces the completion of "The Minimum You Need to Know About Service Oriented Architecture". It is expected to begin shipping on or about April 28, 2008. It will be available at the usual places for this series and has a list price of $45.00 US. Service Oriented Architecture is all the rage these days. Dozens, if not hundreds of books are published on it, and more seem to show up every day. This book isn't awash with buzzwords and jargon. In truth, this book will probably be shunned by the SOA elite. Rather than focus on the front end, this book focuses on the back end. That Heritage data silo/application where all of the other books just draw a box with "connect somehow" written on it. Most of them try to sell some expensive middleware along the way. Management can and should read the first 5 chapters in this book. These chapters aren't technical and may very well open their eyes. The remaining chapters are for those programmers given the "connect somehow" task. While OpenVMS is the Heritage platform of choice in this book and Ubuntu is used for the front end development, developers from other platforms should get a lot of ideas by reading this book. Source code is provided on the CD. This is the last book of the series which will cover OpenVMS. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 06:28:02 -0700 (PDT) From: AEF Subject: Re: VMS advertising ! Message-ID: <584e363c-183e-43c8-b875-08caf036b584@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com> On Apr 11, 1:58 pm, "Main, Kerry" wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Bill Gunshannon [mailto:billg...@cs.uofs.edu] > > Sent: April 10, 2008 6:45 PM > > To: Info-...@Mvb.Saic.Com > > Subject: Re: VMS advertising ! > > > In article > 324e7907b...@24g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, > > nomail2...@aol.com writes: > > > > Someone else using VMS as a trademark: > > > > Vulnerability Management System (VMS) from i-security > > > As I pointed out here in the past, DISA has been using the term VMS for > > their > > "Vulnerability Management System" for a number of years already. I > > think it > > is safe to assume at this point that the term VMS is up for grabs even > > when > > used in an IT reference. > > > bill > > > -- > > Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three > > wolves > > billg...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > > University of Scranton | > > Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include > > The official name is OpenVMS, so why would anyone bother protecting the name "VMS?" > > (ok, besides sentimental reasons?) > > For kicks, google "VMS" and watch how mant different hits you get. > > A few examples: > > http://www.cisco.com/en/US/products/sw/cscowork/ps2330/ > > http://www.vmsom.com/ > > http://www.vmsventures.com/ > > http://www.vmslimited.co.uk/ > > http://www.vms-at.com/ > > http://www.vms.edu/Default.asp?bhcp=1 > > Regards > > Kerry Main > Senior Consultant > HP Services Canada > Voice: 613-254-8911 > Fax: 613-591-4477 > kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom > (remove the DOT's and AT) > > OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. While it may or may no matter for VMS, at least one company protects its old names: Exxon Mobil. Before the merger I distinctly remember seeing tiny Esso labels on their gas pumps. (And post-merger we still see separate Exxon and Mobil gas stations.) But I admit this may be because it's still sold as Esso outside the U.S. But I'd think they'd still do it even if that weren't true. (Apparently you can't keep a trade mark as exclusively your own if you don't use it.) I don't know if they still do this. I think I saw a similar thing for another company but I don't recall for sure. So at least such a thing is not unheard of. AEF ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 09:02:53 -0700 (PDT) From: AEF Subject: Re: VMS advertising ! Message-ID: On Apr 12, 6:38 am, "P. Sture" wrote: > In article > <9d58f5a7-12b5-4e65-97de-e9641076f...@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, > > DaveG wrote: > > Old" customer relations, and I'm included in that group. But what > > the heck, the name changed to OpenVMS how many years ago? At least > > 10, probably more. > > According to the "VMS at 20" PDF, "Major Releases" appendix, the first > mentions of OpenVMS are: > > OpenVMS/AXP V1.0 November 1992 - Alpha is here! > > and: > > OpenVMS/VAX V6.0 June 1993 > > -- > Paul Sture > > Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks:http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html But it didn't make it into SHOW SYSTEM until V6.2: VAX/VMS V6.1 on node BTND15 11-APR-2008 12:54:27.46 Uptime 189 20:40:03 OpenVMS V6.2 on node BTND18 11-APR-2008 12:54:29.21 Uptime 189 20:20:21 AEF ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 11:53:51 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: Why not SCSI? Message-ID: <48022c8b$0$90268$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> bradhamilton wrote: > JF Mezei wrote: >> Just found out that some/many circa 1999 machines have IDE (now called >> ATA) interfaces that only see the first 128 gigs of drives. > > Why not use SCSI, instead? > > I've been using Seagate 73Gb drives in my SBB enclosures for a number of > years now, with only one drive failure in all that time. Since my disks > are shadowed, no loss of data. > > Once I get some spare cash, I'm going to start replacing the 73G with > 146G, just to see if they will work. A 146G, 10K RPM SCSI disk is > selling on e-bay with a starting price of USD$55. Why go IDE? A DS10L comes with IDE but no SCSI if I remember correct. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 11:16:29 -0400 From: bradhamilton Subject: Why not SCSI? (was:Re: Maximum IDE disk size for DS10L ?) Message-ID: <480223CD.70007@comcast.net> JF Mezei wrote: > Just found out that some/many circa 1999 machines have IDE (now called > ATA) interfaces that only see the first 128 gigs of drives. Why not use SCSI, instead? I've been using Seagate 73Gb drives in my SBB enclosures for a number of years now, with only one drive failure in all that time. Since my disks are shadowed, no loss of data. Once I get some spare cash, I'm going to start replacing the 73G with 146G, just to see if they will work. A 146G, 10K RPM SCSI disk is selling on e-bay with a starting price of USD$55. Why go IDE? [...] ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 11:21:28 -0500 (CDT) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: Why not SCSI? (was:Re: Maximum IDE disk size for DS10L ?) Message-ID: <08041311212868_2020CE0A@antinode.org> From: bradhamilton > Once I get some spare cash, I'm going to start replacing the 73G with > 146G, just to see if they will work. A 146G, 10K RPM SCSI disk is > selling on e-bay with a starting price of USD$55. Why go IDE? I've found that the starting price and the ending ("selling") price on eBay often differ substantially. I did get a bargain on a "SEAGATE ST373453LC", but that was because I was bidding on a 36GB drive, the seller sent the wrong one, and he let me keep the bigger one rather than invest in a multiple re-shipment ordeal. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode.org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 12:58:19 -0400 From: bradhamilton Subject: Re: Why not SCSI? (was:Re: Maximum IDE disk size for DS10L ?) Message-ID: <48023BAB.8060407@comcast.net> Steven M. Schweda wrote: [...] > I've found that the starting price and the ending ("selling") price > on eBay often differ substantially. I did get a bargain on a "SEAGATE > ST373453LC", but that was because I was bidding on a 36GB drive, the > seller sent the wrong one, and he let me keep the bigger one rather than > invest in a multiple re-shipment ordeal. I've been lucky to find two sellers with good reputations and deals; I ended up paying around USD$1/Gb for 36 and 73 Gb drives, not including shipping (this was several years ago - I hope prices have dropped further since then). It looks as though you ended up with a good deal. I thought that the DS10L had an internal SCSI card (for the CD?). I would hope that they are not completely crippled by IDE (my apologies if my prejudices are showing - I've never actually experienced VMS in an IDE environment, but I've heard second-hand that disk I/O is considerably more sluggish in such beasts). [...] ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 13:10:31 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: Why not SCSI? (was:Re: Maximum IDE disk size for DS10L ?) Message-ID: <48023e84$0$90268$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> bradhamilton wrote: > I thought that the DS10L had an internal SCSI card (for the CD?). http://h18000.www1.hp.com/products/quickspecs/10551_na/10551_na.html says: Storage Controller Onboard IDE controller for internal storage, choice of optional storage controllers Storage Diskette Drive/CD-ROM Optional Hard Drives 20-GB and 40-GB IDE disk drives or 18.2-GB and 36.4-GB UltraSCSI disk drives available with optional SCSI controller (it does not say so, but I am pretty sure that the optional CD does not use the optional SCSI controller, but are on IDE as well) Arne ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2008.207 ************************