INFO-VAX Tue, 07 Aug 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 429 Contents: Re: CC: xmlBufferWriteCHAR & xmlBufferWriteChar in the same source Re: DLTIV in SDLT Drive Re: Easy DCL question PURGE vs. DELETE Re: Easy DCL question PURGE vs. DELETE Re: Easy DCL question PURGE vs. DELETE Re: Easy DCL question PURGE vs. DELETE Re: ES40's won't boot! Re: ES40's won't boot! File Version limit Reset Re: File Version limit Reset Re: File Version limit Reset Good Book To Start CCIE ? Re: How can I create symbol thru Perl "system" command? Re: How can I create symbol thru Perl "system" command? Re: How can I create symbol thru Perl "system" command? Re: How can I create symbol thru Perl "system" command? Re: How much will Integrity cost? Re: How much will Integrity cost? Re: How much will Integrity cost? Re: How much will Integrity cost? Re: How much will Integrity cost? Re: How much will Integrity cost? Re: How much will Integrity cost? RE: How much will Integrity cost? Re: How much will Integrity cost? Re: How much will Integrity cost? Re: How much will Integrity cost? HP still selling Alphas? Re: HP still selling Alphas? Re: HP still selling Alphas? Re: HP still selling Alphas? Re: Installing VMS without a bootable CD-ROM drive Re: Installing VMS without a bootable CD-ROM drive Integrity Workstations? Re: Integrity Workstations? Re: Integrity Workstations? Re: Integrity Workstations? Re: Integrity Workstations? Re: Integrity Workstations? Re: Integrity Workstations? Re: Integrity Workstations? Re: Integrity Workstations? Re: July the 4th Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? RE: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? RE: LDAP tools for VMS RE: LDAP tools for VMS Re: Linux (was Re: How many people here use Itanium w VMS) Re: Maximum Java Heap Size/OpenVMS Java Experiences? Paul BEAUDOIN/MDBK/HSBC is out of the office. Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: Stay on Alpha forever? (that is where the compilers are) Suggestion: F$FAO question Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall RE: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall Re: VMS OS req'd progression Re: YAEQ: Yet Another Editor Question Re: YAEQ: Yet Another Editor Question Your participation is needed in our 30th Anniversary Celebration ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 20:34:18 -0000 From: Pierre Subject: Re: CC: xmlBufferWriteCHAR & xmlBufferWriteChar in the same source Message-ID: <1186432458.790683.159700@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On Aug 3, 2:43 am, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote: > In article <1185995560.820118.283...@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, Pierre writes: > > > in libxml2 2.6.29 (and in other versions also I think), in tree.c, > > there are 2 functions named xmlBufferWriteCHAR &. xmlBufferWriteChar > > > I compile with /NAME=(AS_IS,SHORTENED) but the compiler change le name > > of the second function to xmlBufferWriteChar2 > > Look for a #define that changes xmlBufferWriteChar to xmlBufferWriteChar2 > > This may have been done to allow you to use the code with older RTL > that would need the default /names=uppercase. (self answer) or with another language that only accept uppercase (Pascal for ex.) so I have to choose new RTL support or ols RTL + other langages support ... > I'd compile tree.c with the include files in listings, then search > for a possible #define: > > cc /list/show=include tree > search tree.lis "xmlBufferWriteChar"/exact Pierre. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2007 02:23:34 GMT From: dittman@dittman.net Subject: Re: DLTIV in SDLT Drive Message-ID: healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > dittman@dittman.net wrote: > > According to Quantum you can read DLT IV media in a SDLT320 drive. I've > > read there are issues with reading DLT IV media in SDLT320 drives with > > old firmware so upgrading to a newer firmware might be necessary. > You are supposed to be able to read two versions back with any given drive. > The SDLT320's should be able to read DLT IV media written in a DLT8000 > drive, but can't. Also I'm told the S4 drives can read SDLT600 tapes, but > can't read data written on an SDLT320 drive (our group doesn't have S4 > drives yet). Here's Quantum's online "Media Compatibility Tool": http://www.quantum.com/mediaanswers/wheel.html It looks like real-world results don't match since that shows DLT IV tapes written on DLT4000 through DLT8000 drives as being readable in an SDLT320 and SDLT1 tapes written on a SDLT320 drive as being readable in a DLT-S4 drive. We just had the firmware upgraded on our SDLT320 drives and they still won't read the DLT IV tapes but the vendor says it should work so they are sending someone out tomorrow to investigate. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 13:48:15 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: Easy DCL question PURGE vs. DELETE Message-ID: <1186433295.341007.43450@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Aug 6, 1:27 pm, Doug Phillips wrote: > On Aug 5, 7:17 pm, AEF wrote: > > > On Aug 5, 4:26 pm, Doug Phillips wrote: > > > > On Aug 5, 2:10 pm, AEF wrote: > > > > > On Aug 5, 2:20 pm, Doug Phillips wrote: > > [...] > > > Example 2: > > > ONE.TMP;4 18:00 > > ONE.TMP;3 17:00 > > ONE.TMP;2 16:00 > > TWO.TMP;8 14:00 > > TWO.TMP;3 13:00 > > TWO.TMP;1 12:00 > > THREE.TMP;8 17:00 > > THREE.TMP;6 15:00 > > THREE.TMP;1 10:00 > > > Now suppose I want to PURGE this directory but only delete _old_ > > versions older than 16:30. This would leave the following: > > > ONE.TMP;4 18:00 > > ONE.TMP;3 17:00 > > TWO.TMP;8 14:00 > > THREE.TMP;8 17:00 > > > Note that TWO.TMP;8 is older than 16:30, but it was saved because I > > used PURGE. Had I used DELETE it would be gone! NOW do you understand > > what I'm trying to do? I can easily do this with the current version > > of PURGE. I can't do this with your version of PURGE unless you add > > the possibility of /KEEP=0 which I would consider to be a rather > > bizarre option for a PURGE command. > > > One more variation: I want to save the current versions of ONE.TMP, > > TWO.TMP, and THREE.TMP no matter what. That means saving ONE.TMP;4, > > TWO.TMP;8, and THREE.TMP;8. Out of the remaining versions, I want to > > delete those with a time stamp of less than 16:30. I can't do this > > with your algorithm, but I can with mine. I simply would use $ PURGE/ > > BEFORE=16:30 and it would do what I want. With your algorithm I'd be > > stuck with three extra versions I'd have to manually delete. > > > > Same thing. > > Sorry, I said "same thing" but in re-reading it I now understand the > slight difference (I think??) I guess sometimes I scan too quickly and > for that I do apologize. Sorry, I meant a variation on the explanation because you still don't see what I want to do is not possible with your algorithm. > But, I don't understand which three files you think are excess. [...] Oops, that should have been two, not three. If it followed your algorithm it wouldn't have deleted ONE.TMP;2 and THREE.TMP;6. Please let me try to explain it again. Short version: I want the equivalent of DELETE/BEFORE=16:30/EXCLUDE=; (which is not a legal command!). Long version: Suppose I have a directory containing these files (in the version- unaware sense of the word "file")**: ONE.TMP;4 18:00 ONE.TMP;3 17:00 ONE.TMP;2 16:00 S * TWO.TMP;8 14:00 S TWO.TMP;3 13:00 S * # TWO.TMP;1 12:00 S * # THREE.TMP;8 17:00 THREE.TMP;6 15:00 S * THREE.TMP;1 10:00 S * # The versions marked S are the versions which Satisfy /BEFORE=16:30. The versions marked * are what my algorithm would delete. The versions marked # are what your algorithm would delete. To see how I arrived at the * versions, we can split up the versions into two sets: Current versions: ONE.TMP;4 18:00 TWO.TMP;8 14:00 S THREE.TMP;8 17:00 Old versions: ONE.TMP;3 17:00 ONE.TMP;2 16:00 S * TWO.TMP;3 13:00 S * # TWO.TMP;1 12:00 S * # THREE.TMP;6 15:00 S * THREE.TMP;1 10:00 S * # What I want to do is to delete all the old versions that are older than 16:30. That means all old versions that are also S versions. I've marked these with asterisks. My algorithm would delete only the * versions because its /KEEP=1 is protecting the current versions. Your algorithm would delete only the # versions because its /KEEP=1 is protecting, for each file, the highest-numbered version of its S-versions. Thus I'd have to manually delete ONE.TMP;2 and THREE.TMP;6 to get what I want with your algorithm. If there were many versions of many files, this would quickly become a PITA. What I basically want can also be expressed as DELETE/BEFORE=16:30/ EXCLUDE=; which would do exactly what I want except that ';' is not a valid argument for /EXCLUDE. In current VMS, PURGE/BEFORE=16:30 does exactly this. There is no way to do this with your algorithm without either adding /CONFIRM, adding a lengthy /EXCLUDE qualifier, or doing a manual cleanup afterwards. To do this in batch (with your algorithm) would require writing some DCL code. To do what you want to do with my algorithm would only require adding 1 to the keep value. ** Note that there are 3 files, 3 current versions, 6 old versions, and 9 total versions. AEF ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 16:52:11 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: Easy DCL question PURGE vs. DELETE Message-ID: <1186444331.943274.154980@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> On Aug 6, 12:52 pm, Doug Phillips wrote: > On Aug 5, 7:17 pm, AEF wrote: > > > On Aug 5, 4:26 pm, Doug Phillips wrote: > > > > On Aug 5, 2:10 pm, AEF wrote: > > > > > On Aug 5, 2:20 pm, Doug Phillips wrote: > > [...] > > > > > I'll reply here rather that waste band-width quoting one of our other > > > > > incredibly long and winding posts. > > > > > > AEF, purge does not work the way you describe. > > > > > Yes it does. > > > > > > Since you can't look at ITRC, and see Jon Pinkley's reproducer I'll > > > > > paste it in here (hope you don't mind, Jon). It'll probably wrap, but > > > > > I can't help that. > > > I can look at it, but it's a struggle to read it. It's so dense. It's > > like reading STARTUP.COM. ... OK, I brought up the ITRC thread and > > pasted it into to an Outlook email window and it is finally readable. (Usually Wordpad saves the day if I click New, Text; but not this time!) > > I printed it and read it. OK. (I wish I had a "universal translator" > > program that would automatically do this type of thing for me.) > > A friend with very severe vision problems (character stacking and > horizontal distortion) uses the following methods (on Windows): CTRL/+ > (how every many times it takes) to increase the size of the font; Use > the left-click or shift-arrow to slowly high-light across the text; > Use the Magnifier tools; Use a "nothced" index card (or folded piece > of paper); Does what you do (cut & paste to something with better > control.) It's not the size. Those tricks wouldn't make STARTUP.COM any more readable and I don't think they'd help here either. It's also annoying with different parts of the screen gray and white with another shade of gray and white on the sides. Sorry, it's just too "orthogonal" to my vision system. It's ugly. And they could drop the member-status icons. They just mean the number of posts times average points per post. Who cares? If they were based on average points per reply (perhaps weighted toward recent posts or based on posts in the same category), that would be a lot more useful, I think. And something other than "magical answer" for posts with solutions. We're not doing magic here. Thanks for your efforts just the same. > There may very well be a vision aid tool that would do what you want; > I'll ask and see if anyone knows. Or, maybe someone here has some > experience (though it seems everyone else has either kill-filed this > thread or has been put to sleep by it's verbosity;-) It needs to be redone from scratch. It's beyond band-aids. Fixed-width font would be a good start but as for me doing that I don't want to go through fix-the-fonts hell and risk ruining other Web sites. > I agree that ITRC's formatting is lame. There is an option during > posting that will post "as is" without formatting, but it's not the > default. Thanks, I'll keep that in mind. I want to respond to the current BACKUP thread. > > [...] > > > > The bug has been reported, and it is bug. As noted in the ITRC thread, > > > Your opinion. As is, it offers additional functionality. Yet I agreed > > that your way is also a reasonable way to do it. > > I think quite a few others share "my opinion" because I wasn't the > first one to have the opinion. I read what others said, ran a few > tests myself and became a believer. Understood. Many do share your opinion. But that doesn't change my thoughts on it. And it doesn't change the fact that it's far easier for you and company to adjust to my algorithm than me to yours. [...] > > What does it do for /KEEP=1 and without /KEEP? > > If you mean "what did it do back when", the discussion indicates it > worked as I described. It would keep the highest version of the files > you specify/qualify and ignore the ones that don't match your specs/ > quals. No. Sorry, it was Martin Hughes who posted the VMS V5.5-2H4. I'd like to see what his system does with /KEEP and with /KEEP=1 for the same example. > That's also what I remember, and I was surprised to find it working > the way it does. > > My most often usage is to purge/since to remove all but the current > version of source code that I've worked on today (you know, the stuff > that has all the typos and compiler errors(8-O), leaving the older > version(s). That works just fine. Or, purge a file or directory > without qualification; log files, scratch files, report files, etc. > Purge seems to work as expected if you don't qualify it. Yes, I use that, too (PURGE/SINCE). [...] > No, I think "my" way would do what you want, because PURGE by > definition always keeps at least one version of any file that meets > the specs/quals. It should *never* delete all versions of a file that > meet those specs/quals, and it should only "look at" the files you do > specify. If the TWO.TMP;8 meets your specs (which it does) one version > would be kept. The /qualifiers would operate on matching files after > the /keep has been satisfied. Again, though for emphasis: It should > ignore any file that doesn't match, and keep exactly the number you > specify if there are at least that many versions. But your way saves the highest version from those that satisfy the selection qualifiers, even if that highest version isn't the current version. If that same highest-version is not the current version, I want it gone. That's the difference. See my other post for an explicit example of our algorithms in action. (I want what DELETE/BEFORE=time/ EXCLUDE=; would do if it were a valid command.) > > One more variation: I want to save the current versions of ONE.TMP, > > TWO.TMP, and THREE.TMP no matter what. That means saving ONE.TMP;4, > > TWO.TMP;8, and THREE.TMP;8. Out of the remaining versions, I want to > > delete those with a time stamp of less than 16:30. I can't do this > > with your algorithm, but I can with mine. I simply would use $ PURGE/ > > BEFORE=16:30 and it would do what I want. With your algorithm I'd be > > stuck with three extra versions I'd have to manually delete. > > Same thing. Right, I meant one more variation on the _explanation_ of the same thing. Sorry, my fault. [...] AEF ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 17:21:36 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: Easy DCL question PURGE vs. DELETE Message-ID: <1186446096.574149.298130@e16g2000pri.googlegroups.com> On Aug 6, 3:48 pm, AEF wrote: > On Aug 6, 1:27 pm, Doug Phillips wrote: > > On Aug 5, 7:17 pm, AEF wrote: > > > On Aug 5, 4:26 pm, Doug Phillips wrote: > > > > On Aug 5, 2:10 pm, AEF wrote: > > > > > On Aug 5, 2:20 pm, Doug Phillips wrote: > > > [...] > > > > Example 2: > > > > ONE.TMP;4 18:00 > > > ONE.TMP;3 17:00 > > > ONE.TMP;2 16:00 > > > TWO.TMP;8 14:00 > > > TWO.TMP;3 13:00 > > > TWO.TMP;1 12:00 > > > THREE.TMP;8 17:00 > > > THREE.TMP;6 15:00 > > > THREE.TMP;1 10:00 > > > > Now suppose I want to PURGE this directory but only delete _old_ > > > versions older than 16:30. This would leave the following: > > > > ONE.TMP;4 18:00 > > > ONE.TMP;3 17:00 > > > TWO.TMP;8 14:00 > > > THREE.TMP;8 17:00 > > > > Note that TWO.TMP;8 is older than 16:30, but it was saved because I > > > used PURGE. Had I used DELETE it would be gone! NOW do you understand > > > what I'm trying to do? I can easily do this with the current version > > > of PURGE. I can't do this with your version of PURGE unless you add > > > the possibility of /KEEP=0 which I would consider to be a rather > > > bizarre option for a PURGE command. > > > > One more variation: I want to save the current versions of ONE.TMP, > > > TWO.TMP, and THREE.TMP no matter what. That means saving ONE.TMP;4, > > > TWO.TMP;8, and THREE.TMP;8. Out of the remaining versions, I want to > > > delete those with a time stamp of less than 16:30. I can't do this > > > with your algorithm, but I can with mine. I simply would use $ PURGE/ > > > BEFORE=16:30 and it would do what I want. With your algorithm I'd be > > > stuck with three extra versions I'd have to manually delete. > > > > > Same thing. > > > Sorry, I said "same thing" but in re-reading it I now understand the > > slight difference (I think??) I guess sometimes I scan too quickly and > > for that I do apologize. > > Sorry, I meant a variation on the explanation because you still don't > see what I want to do is not possible with your algorithm. > > > But, I don't understand which three files you think are excess. > > [...] > > Oops, that should have been two, not three. If it followed your > algorithm it wouldn't have deleted ONE.TMP;2 and THREE.TMP;6. > > Please let me try to explain it again. > > Short version: I want the equivalent of DELETE/BEFORE=16:30/EXCLUDE=; > (which is not a legal command!). > > Long version: > > Suppose I have a directory containing these files (in the version- > unaware sense of the word "file")**: > > ONE.TMP;4 18:00 > ONE.TMP;3 17:00 > ONE.TMP;2 16:00 S * > > TWO.TMP;8 14:00 S > TWO.TMP;3 13:00 S * # > TWO.TMP;1 12:00 S * # > > THREE.TMP;8 17:00 > THREE.TMP;6 15:00 S * > THREE.TMP;1 10:00 S * # > > The versions marked S are the versions which Satisfy /BEFORE=16:30. > > The versions marked * are what my algorithm would delete. > > The versions marked # are what your algorithm would delete. > > To see how I arrived at the * versions, we can split up the versions > into two sets: > > Current versions: > > ONE.TMP;4 18:00 > TWO.TMP;8 14:00 S > THREE.TMP;8 17:00 > > Old versions: > > ONE.TMP;3 17:00 > ONE.TMP;2 16:00 S * > TWO.TMP;3 13:00 S * # > TWO.TMP;1 12:00 S * # > THREE.TMP;6 15:00 S * > THREE.TMP;1 10:00 S * # > > What I want to do is to delete all the old versions that are older > than 16:30. That means all old versions that are also S versions. I've > marked these with asterisks. > Ok, I get it. I know you've explained it before, and I've gotten it, but somehow my "light" got turned off while reading the rest of the post(s). Here's the way the documentation says it should work: PURGE/BEFORE=16:30 [default /KEEP=1] (process) ONE.TMP;4 18:00 -skip because of date. ONE.TMP;3 17:00 -skip because of date ONE.TMP;2 16:00 -New match: reset count: Keep because of count. TWO.TMP;8 14:00 -New match: reset count: Keep because of count. TWO.TMP;3 13:00 -match: delete because of count. TWO.TMP;1 12:00 -match: delete because of count. THREE.TMP;8 17:00 -skip because of date. THREE.TMP;6 15:00 -New match: reset count: Keep because of count. THREE.TMP;1 10:00 -match: delete because of count. 3 files deleted. You want it to work (the way it works now): PURGE/BEFORE=16:30 [default /KEEP=1] (process) ONE.TMP;4 18:00 -New filename.ext: reset count: Keep because of count. ONE.TMP;3 17:00 -skip because of date. ONE.TMP;2 16:00 -match: delete because of count. TWO.TMP;8 14:00 -New filename.ext: reset count: Keep because of count. TWO.TMP;3 13:00 -match: delete because of count. TWO.TMP;1 12:00 -match: delete because of count. THREE.TMP;8 17:00 -New filename.ext: reset count: Keep because of count. THREE.TMP;6 15:00 -match: delete because of count. THREE.TMP;1 10:00 -match: delete because of count. 5 files deleted. Right? So, the question is: Should HP change the documentation to describe the way it works now, or change the command to work the way it's documented. Please excuse my density. I haven't expected purge to work the way it does now, and I haven't expected be able to do what you're doing without additional effort. I most often use purge/since to clean out source that I've worked on today (you know, the ones with the typo's and compile errors(8-O) and leave the originals. If I would have expected anything, it would have been to find at least one version (or /keep=n versions) of any file dated /before=date, which is exactly what you *don't* want. Or, I often use it without concern for the date to clear out journal, print, and temp-work directories and such. Actually, for "important" journals, I usually "BACKUP/BEFORE=date" them to someplace else, and then DELETE/BEFORE=date the active directory. Those commands have always worked as expected and I test them with any new update/upgrade. COPY/BEFORE=date/SINCE=older-date was broken at one time, and wouldn't copy *any* files. I don't know when it was fixed because I've gotten in the habit of using BACKUP. Another long-ago bug in EDIT/FDL/NOINTER/ ANAL=file that set the primary key to CHANGES=Y shocked me into total paranoia, so I've developed "my" way to do things and I spend the testing time on those. If something else breaks, hopefully I'll find it when I test it before I try to use, or some other unlucky person will find it first. Anyway, I don't want a file that hasn't been touched in a long time cluttering things up, and if I need to delve into the past I look at the archive. Of course, I do PURGEs for various reasons but until the ITRC discussion, I never noticed a this "idiosyncrasy." So, that's my excuse. It's the best one I can come up with without spending lots of time contriving a better one or bringing up the misfortunes of my childhood;-) [I "purged" the rest of your post where you expounded on the above.] P.S. to Norm: I thought you said "Easy DCL question...":-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 18:39:57 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: Easy DCL question PURGE vs. DELETE Message-ID: <1186450797.117605.150610@b79g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Aug 6, 8:21 pm, Doug Phillips wrote: > On Aug 6, 3:48 pm, AEF wrote: > > > On Aug 6, 1:27 pm, Doug Phillips wrote: > > > On Aug 5, 7:17 pm, AEF wrote: > > > > On Aug 5, 4:26 pm, Doug Phillips wrote: > > > > > On Aug 5, 2:10 pm, AEF wrote: > > > > > > On Aug 5, 2:20 pm, Doug Phillips wrote: > > > > [...] > [...] > > > Please let me try to explain it again. > > > Short version: I want the equivalent of DELETE/BEFORE=16:30/EXCLUDE=; > > (which is not a legal command!). > > > Long version: > > > Suppose I have a directory containing these files (in the version- > > unaware sense of the word "file")**: > > > ONE.TMP;4 18:00 > > ONE.TMP;3 17:00 > > ONE.TMP;2 16:00 S * > > > TWO.TMP;8 14:00 S > > TWO.TMP;3 13:00 S * # > > TWO.TMP;1 12:00 S * # > > > THREE.TMP;8 17:00 > > THREE.TMP;6 15:00 S * > > THREE.TMP;1 10:00 S * # > > > The versions marked S are the versions which Satisfy /BEFORE=16:30. > > > The versions marked * are what my algorithm would delete. > > > The versions marked # are what your algorithm would delete. > > > To see how I arrived at the * versions, we can split up the versions > > into two sets: > > > Current versions: > > > ONE.TMP;4 18:00 > > TWO.TMP;8 14:00 S > > THREE.TMP;8 17:00 > > > Old versions: > > > ONE.TMP;3 17:00 > > ONE.TMP;2 16:00 S * > > TWO.TMP;3 13:00 S * # > > TWO.TMP;1 12:00 S * # > > THREE.TMP;6 15:00 S * > > THREE.TMP;1 10:00 S * # > > > What I want to do is to delete all the old versions that are older > > than 16:30. That means all old versions that are also S versions. I've > > marked these with asterisks. > > Ok, I get it. I know you've explained it before, and I've gotten it, > but somehow my "light" got turned off while reading the rest of the > post(s). > > Here's the way the documentation says it should work: I still say the doc is ambiguous on this, esp. when /KEEP is mixed with selection qualifiers. > > PURGE/BEFORE=16:30 [default /KEEP=1] > (process) > ONE.TMP;4 18:00 -skip because of date. > ONE.TMP;3 17:00 -skip because of date > ONE.TMP;2 16:00 -New match: reset count: Keep because of count. > > TWO.TMP;8 14:00 -New match: reset count: Keep because of count. > TWO.TMP;3 13:00 -match: delete because of count. > TWO.TMP;1 12:00 -match: delete because of count. > > THREE.TMP;8 17:00 -skip because of date. > THREE.TMP;6 15:00 -New match: reset count: Keep because of count. > THREE.TMP;1 10:00 -match: delete because of count. > > 3 files deleted. > > You want it to work (the way it works now): > > PURGE/BEFORE=16:30 [default /KEEP=1] > (process) > ONE.TMP;4 18:00 -New filename.ext: reset count: Keep because of > count. > ONE.TMP;3 17:00 -skip because of date. > ONE.TMP;2 16:00 -match: delete because of count. > > TWO.TMP;8 14:00 -New filename.ext: reset count: Keep because of > count. > TWO.TMP;3 13:00 -match: delete because of count. > TWO.TMP;1 12:00 -match: delete because of count. > > THREE.TMP;8 17:00 -New filename.ext: reset count: Keep because of > count. > THREE.TMP;6 15:00 -match: delete because of count. > THREE.TMP;1 10:00 -match: delete because of count. > > 5 files deleted. > > Right? Bingo! > > So, the question is: Should HP change the documentation to describe > the way it works now, or change the command to work the way it's > documented. If you ask me, leave it as is, and fix the doc to my satisfaction. It's late -- I'll comment on the rest later. good night [...] AEF > P.S. to Norm: I thought you said "Easy DCL question...":-) LOL ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 23:28:43 GMT From: John Santos Subject: Re: ES40's won't boot! Message-ID: Tom Wade wrote: > >> Works for me. >> >> When I got my ES40s I plugged a cable into on of the DB9 ports (without >> having consulted the documentation) and it gave me the familiar > > > It still isn't the real console. When SRM is running, it will issue a > prompt and accept commands on all three serial interfaces. Once you > start the boot sequence, only the real console will be active. The > other two serial lines will be unusable until VMS is running. This is > what the original poster saw. > > I believe (though I haven't tried it) that > > - VMS can only be halted by CTRL/P on the real console. > - RMC only works on the real console. > Thanks to all. They got the ES40 to boot by plugging a CRT into the MMJ port. It turned out it was waiting for the date/time to be entered. Once booted, the CRT on the MMJ could log in and its terminal port shows up as OPA0:, so the MMJ is definitely the console. -- John Santos Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 16:48:09 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: ES40's won't boot! Message-ID: On Mon, 06 Aug 2007 16:28:43 -0700, John Santos wrote: > Tom Wade wrote: >> >>> Works for me. >>> >>> When I got my ES40s I plugged a cable into on of the DB9 ports (without >>> having consulted the documentation) and it gave me the familiar >> It still isn't the real console. When SRM is running, it will issue >> a prompt and accept commands on all three serial interfaces. Once you >> start the boot sequence, only the real console will be active. The >> other two serial lines will be unusable until VMS is running. This is >> what the original poster saw. >> I believe (though I haven't tried it) that >> - VMS can only be halted by CTRL/P on the real console. >> - RMC only works on the real console. >> > > Thanks to all. They got the ES40 to boot by plugging a CRT into the > MMJ port. It turned out it was waiting for the date/time to be > entered. Once booted, the CRT on the MMJ could log in and its terminal > port shows up as OPA0:, so the MMJ is definitely the console. > Not on mine, it is one of the D9's, but someone commented that this may be configured -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 18:39:11 -0700 From: rexruger@gmail.com Subject: File Version limit Reset Message-ID: <1186450751.083844.31930@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com> Hi, I was hoping someone may have already written a DCL procedure for this problem. I have searched but could not find anything. I would like to reset the version number on a file once it reaches or approaches 32767. e.g. If I had 3 files file.dat;32767 file.dat;32766 file.dat;32765 I would like to run the procedure and set the version number on the files as follows : file.dat;3 file.dat;2 file.dat;1 Hoping someone may be able to help Thanks, ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 20:51:31 -0500 (CDT) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: File Version limit Reset Message-ID: <07080620513181_20200346@antinode.org> From: rexruger@gmail.com > I was hoping someone may have already written a DCL procedure for this > problem. I have searched but could not find anything. > > I would like to reset the version number on a file once it reaches or > approaches 32767. > [...] I have some (probably rough) code in my TCPIP$SMTP_RECV_RUN.COM to deal with the TCPIP$SMTP_RECV_RUN.LOG files. I've been meaning to extract and generalize it a bit, especially since I discovered that SYS$SYSDEVICE:[TCPIP$SSH]TCPIP$SSH_RUN.LOG is also climbing out of sight. I use a lock file near the file to be purged/reversioned (and another trick or two) to avoid having two jobs collide. If you don't get any better offers, let me know, and I can probably get to work and beat it into better (less embarassing) shape. (It may be flawed, but it has been working acceptably for some months now on the SMTP logs. At the rate I get junk e-mail connections, it probably resets the versions every few days. Of course, its proper operation could be more by luck than design.) It would be nice, if HP plans to continue to cause this problem, if they also supplied a good solution for it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2007 03:20:03 -0000 From: Ruger Subject: Re: File Version limit Reset Message-ID: <1186456803.333604.211070@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On Aug 7, 11:51 am, s...@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) wrote: > From: rexru...@gmail.com > > > I was hoping someone may have already written a DCL procedure for this > > problem. I have searched but could not find anything. > > > I would like to reset the version number on a file once it reaches or > > approaches 32767. > > [...] > > I have some (probably rough) code in my TCPIP$SMTP_RECV_RUN.COM to > deal with the TCPIP$SMTP_RECV_RUN.LOG files. I've been meaning to > extract and generalize it a bit, especially since I discovered that > SYS$SYSDEVICE:[TCPIP$SSH]TCPIP$SSH_RUN.LOG is also climbing out of > sight. I use a lock file near the file to be purged/reversioned (and > another trick or two) to avoid having two jobs collide. If you don't > get any better offers, let me know, and I can probably get to work and > beat it into better (less embarassing) shape. (It may be flawed, but it > has been working acceptably for some months now on the SMTP logs. At > the rate I get junk e-mail connections, it probably resets the versions > every few days. Of course, its proper operation could be more by luck > than design.) > > It would be nice, if HP plans to continue to cause this problem, if > they also supplied a good solution for it. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org > 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 > Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 Thanks Steven, If you would be able to post your procedure it would be much appreciated. Thanks Russell, I know about the rename, I gave an example of 3 files but I am talking more about 100's which I would like to rename and keep in version order through a daily/weekly submitted procedure. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 19:02:19 -0000 From: Katie Tam Subject: Good Book To Start CCIE ? Message-ID: <1186426939.453022.142650@b79g2000hse.googlegroups.com> Please let me know any good book to start ? Thank You Katie Tam CCNP, CCDP LinkWaves Corporation **Leading Provider of Cisco Equipment** http://www.linkwaves.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 21:52:37 -0500 From: "Craig A. Berry" Subject: Re: How can I create symbol thru Perl "system" command? Message-ID: In article <1186421741.970565.15690@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, Hein RMS van den Heuvel wrote: > Real solution for real problem using MCR and variable as argument: > > $ perl -e "$user=q(DEFAULT); system(qq(mcr sys\$system:authorize show > $user/br))" > Owner Username UIC Account Privs Pri > Directory... Good point. For the record, Perl assumes a default extension of .exe and automatically prepends the mcr: $ perl -e "system('sys$system:lancp show log');" SYS$MANAGER:LAN$ACP.LOG latest contents: 3-AUG-2007 12:13:44.55 Defined LAN$DLL to be SYS$SYSROOT:[MOM$SYSTEM] 3-AUG-2007 12:13:44.62 Found LAN device EWA0, hardware address 00-10-64-30-AC-F0 3-AUG-2007 12:13:44.67 Node database file, LAN$NODE_DATABASE, not found 3-AUG-2007 12:13:44.93 LANACP initialization complete -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2007 03:14:47 GMT From: "John E. Malmberg" Subject: Re: How can I create symbol thru Perl "system" command? Message-ID: Hein RMS van den Heuvel wrote: > > For the real problem though... why not just use 'MCR'? Why use MCR? Many of the changes that I have been putting into Perl on VMS to make it more usable under GNV is to remove the MCR command from places it is not needed. Please do not use MCR in perl system() calls if you can avoid it. Perl is usually smart enough to silently add the MCR it if it really is needed. Someday Perl might even support using a UNIXY shell like bash instead of DCL for these things. Possibly something more to add to the VMS specific Perl documentation. > Real solution for real problem using MCR and variable as argument: > > $ perl -e "$user=q(DEFAULT); system(qq(mcr sys\$system:authorize show > $user/br))" > Owner Username UIC Account Privs Pri > Directory... Real solution not using MCR. I skipped the argument for my own convenience. $ perl -e "system(qq(sys\$system:authorize show DEFAULT/br))" Owner Username UIC Account Privs Pri Directory DEFAULT [200,200] Normal 4 Disuser -John wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 20:50:27 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: How can I create symbol thru Perl "system" command? Message-ID: On Mon, 06 Aug 2007 20:14:47 -0700, John E. Malmberg = wrote: > Hein RMS van den Heuvel wrote: >> For the real problem though... why not just use 'MCR'? > > Why use MCR? > > Many of the changes that I have been putting into Perl on VMS to make = it = > more usable under GNV is to remove the MCR command from places it is n= ot = > needed. > > Please do not use MCR in perl system() calls if you can avoid it. > > Perl is usually smart enough to silently add the MCR it if it really i= s = > needed. > > Someday Perl might even support using a UNIXY shell like bash instead = of = > DCL for these things. > > Possibly something more to add to the VMS specific Perl documentation.= > >> Real solution for real problem using MCR and variable as argument: >> $ perl -e "$user=3Dq(DEFAULT); system(qq(mcr sys\$system:authorize s= how >> $user/br))" >> Owner Username UIC Account Privs Pri >> Directory... > > Real solution not using MCR. I skipped the argument for my own = > convenience. > > $ perl -e "system(qq(sys\$system:authorize show DEFAULT/br))" > Owner Username UIC Account Privs Pri = = > Directory > > DEFAULT [200,200] Normal 4 = = > Disuser Perhaps dumb question, only used Perl once maybe 12 years ago, but can y= ou make library calls? If so, is there a starlet lib for Perl, in which ca= se there are a number of options > > -John > wb8tyw@qsl.network > Personal Opinion Only -- = PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 23:21:36 -0500 From: Jeff Subject: Re: How can I create symbol thru Perl "system" command? Message-ID: Stephen Hoffman wrote: > John nailed the problem -- the context of a system command and its > created subprocess goes away when the subprocess exits -- and the > resolution here is to use something like the DCLsym module available via > CPAN. Another way to run a foreign command is to define the logical name DCL$PATH: system("define/job/user dcl\$path wsuser1:[csm.ed_cobol]"); system("new_lot_ali foo bar baz"); DCL$PATH can be a search list. It works sorta like the PATH environment variable in some other operating systems.. If what you type happens to be an image in DCL$PATH, it gets run as a foreign command. I use DCL$PATH a lot. It saves me from having to define a foreign command every time I put a new executable in my tools directory. -Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 11:11:38 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: How much will Integrity cost? Message-ID: <1186423898.689139.75580@q3g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On Aug 6, 12:12 pm, tadamsmar wrote: > On Aug 6, 12:10 pm, "Tom Linden" wrote: > > > On Mon, 06 Aug 2007 08:55:41 -0700, tadamsmar wrote: > > > I would need 5 low end Integrity systems to replace 5 DS10s. > > > Just curious, what is the rationale for replacing? > > I only have a rationale for planning. I committed to doing some > planning and the deadline looms. > > The rationale for pricing in the plan is to be able give our client > heads up on a potential big expense in the future. > > I don't know if we will replace or when. I guess the rationale would > be that the Alpha will no longer be built, sold, or supported by HP. > I am really just scoping now. > > Are you not even thinking about it? > > > > > > Each need 2 disks for shadowing, tape drive, two internet ports. > > > > I need vaxset,c,fortran,datatrieve,cdd on one of the 5 systems for > > > development. > > > > I have an inquiry for ballpark estimate in to HP. > > > > Any guesses on the cost/ > > > > I figure somewhere between 50 and 100K. But it get conflicting info > > > from various sites. Define your requirements specifically and ask for a *formal* quote. Requests for a "ballpark" estimate won't get much priority. I'd go to one of the dealers/distributors you're familiar with, or contact HP directly if you don't know anyone else. On your own, you can go to the HP configurator site, configure the hardware & basic system(s) and find the *current* costs. If some of your layered products must be purchased from 3rd parties you'll need to either find a price on their web-site, or contact them directly. A serious buyer might be able to negotiate a discount but a ballpark inquirer has no leverage. You *will* get different prices from different people, and you might even be quoted different part numbers. If you look again later, after your quotes expire, you'll likely get even different numbers. There are so many factors you haven't mentioned (which "low end" model(s), how much memory, how much disk, what are the systems used for...) that no one here can give you a better ballpark number than the one you have. Anyway, any numbers you get will only be good for the term of the quote. If you go back to the same people too often asking for the same quotes, they're likely to put you even further down in their stack of things to do. Sales-critters tend to get excited when someone asks for a new quote, but they tend to lose their enthusiasm when someone repeatedly asks without buying. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 11:14:09 -0700 From: tadamsmar Subject: Re: How much will Integrity cost? Message-ID: <1186424049.801873.87530@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> On Aug 6, 1:38 pm, "Ken Robinson" wrote: > On 8/6/07, tadamsmar wrote: > > > On Aug 6, 12:10 pm, "Tom Linden" wrote: > > > On Mon, 06 Aug 2007 08:55:41 -0700, tadamsmar wrote: > > > > I would need 5 low end Integrity systems to replace 5 DS10s. > > > > Just curious, what is the rationale for replacing? > > > I only have a rationale for planning. I committed to doing some > > planning and the deadline looms. > > > The rationale for pricing in the plan is to be able give our client > > heads up on a potential big expense in the future. > > I would start at the HP Enterprise Configurator page > which will help you with > your configuration and gives you prices at the end. It uses > Javascript, so it won't work if you have Javascript disabled on your > browser. The prices given are before any discounts you might get. > > Ken I did try that. I tried to guess what the lowest end system was. I ended up with rack mounted 15K system. But, other web articles seem to indicate that I shold be about to get a system for something like 5K. And, this is a process control application. We have used DS10 workstations with big X-terminals. So, I was not sure about rack mounting and how to connect to X-terminals. And, I the layered product stuff, in a separate location, was confusing about. Why is a individual license cheaper that a workgroup license? Did not know which to choose. Also, the web page was slow, so I did not feel like trying over and over to find the cheapest configuration. Other than that, the configuration tool worked great ;-) Anyway I emailed my specs to a HP guy for a quotation. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 11:18:14 -0700 From: tadamsmar Subject: Re: How much will Integrity cost? Message-ID: <1186424294.110608.68260@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Aug 6, 2:14 pm, tadamsmar wrote: > On Aug 6, 1:38 pm, "Ken Robinson" wrote: > > > > > > > On 8/6/07, tadamsmar wrote: > > > > On Aug 6, 12:10 pm, "Tom Linden" wrote: > > > > On Mon, 06 Aug 2007 08:55:41 -0700, tadamsmar wrote: > > > > > I would need 5 low end Integrity systems to replace 5 DS10s. > > > > > Just curious, what is the rationale for replacing? > > > > I only have a rationale for planning. I committed to doing some > > > planning and the deadline looms. > > > > The rationale for pricing in the plan is to be able give our client > > > heads up on a potential big expense in the future. > > > I would start at the HP Enterprise Configurator page > > which will help you with > > your configuration and gives you prices at the end. It uses > > Javascript, so it won't work if you have Javascript disabled on your > > browser. The prices given are before any discounts you might get. > > > Ken > > I did try that. I tried to guess what the lowest end system was. > > I ended up with rack mounted 15K system. > > But, other web articles seem to indicate that I shold be about to get > a system for something like 5K. > > And, this is a process control application. We have used DS10 > workstations with big X-terminals. So, I was not sure about rack > mounting and how to connect to X-terminals. > > And, I the layered product stuff, in a separate location, was > confusing about. Why is a individual license cheaper that a > workgroup license? > Did not know which to choose. > > Also, the web page was slow, so I did not feel like trying over and > over to find the cheapest configuration. > > Other than that, the configuration tool worked great ;-) > > Anyway I emailed my specs to a HP guy for a quotation.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - I meant big monitors not big X-terminals. I guess we could use X- terminals. But I would like to use my existing monitors if we did not wait to upgrade for many years. I have a couple of new monitors. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 14:36:38 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: How much will Integrity cost? Message-ID: General question: On the day Alpha was murdered, Compaq announmced some initiative "Alpha retain Trust" which was meant to reduce the pain induced by Capellas when he murdered Alpha and force people to buy that unwanted IA64 contraption. Would someone like tadasmar with DS10s have any sort of automatic discount because he is downgrading from Alphas to IA64s ? Or was that "retain trust" thing just for the few very large customers that Compaq/HP actually care about ? What about licenses ? How would one, who doesn't have an HP rep, go about finding out how much it would cost to move from Alpha to some IA64 boxes ? Or is it assumed everyone just buys new licenes from scratch ? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 11:40:32 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: How much will Integrity cost? Message-ID: On Mon, 06 Aug 2007 10:12:40 -0700, tadamsmar wrote: >> Just curious, what is the rationale for replacing? > I only have a rationale for planning. I committed to doing some > planning and the deadline looms. > The rationale for pricing in the plan is to be able give our client > heads up on a potential big expense in the future. > I don't know if we will replace or when. I guess the rationale would > be that the Alpha will no longer be built, sold, or supported by HP. > I am really just scoping now. > Are you not even thinking about it? We have to, but if I were an end user, I doubt it. As it is, we have a lot of spare HW, both Alpha and VAX -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 12:20:28 -0700 From: tadamsmar Subject: Re: How much will Integrity cost? Message-ID: <1186428028.578177.308130@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> On Aug 6, 2:36 pm, JF Mezei wrote: > General question: > > On the day Alpha was murdered, Compaq announmced some initiative "Alpha > retain Trust" which was meant to reduce the pain induced by Capellas > when he murdered Alpha and force people to buy that unwanted IA64 > contraption. > > Would someone like tadasmar with DS10s have any sort of automatic > discount because he is downgrading from Alphas to IA64s ? Or was that > "retain trust" thing just for the few very large customers that > Compaq/HP actually care about ? > > What about licenses ? How would one, who doesn't have an HP rep, go > about finding out how much it would cost to move from Alpha to some IA64 > boxes ? Or is it assumed everyone just buys new licenes from scratch ? I guess I probably have a rep. But I tend to email the last HP guy who sent me a quote, and ask him to send me a quote. And I did that this morning. I guess I might get a break on trading in my old licenses. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 15:30:09 -0400 From: "FredK" Subject: Re: How much will Integrity cost? Message-ID: "JF Mezei" wrote in message news:c3cb0$46b76a39$cef8887a$1867@TEKSAVVY.COM... > General question: > Ignoring JF's known feelings. If you are going to replace the DS10's with low-end Integrity servers, then the Alpha Retain Trust program should allow you to pretty much swap the existing licenses for Integrity licenses - making it a very attractive upgrade. All things considered, you will probably find that the raw hardware itself is a lot cheaper than the equivalent class Alpha, but the SW cost is a bit higher (this varies because of per-CPU licensing - it all depends) and if you are buying soup to nuts the total cost is usually slightly less to a wash. But if you are replacing the Alpha systems using ART - it is a very good deal. I'm not involved in sales, and don't really know the specifics - this was feedback from a couple specific customers who have used ART. Note that all of the "low-end" Integrity Servers can have multiple CPUs - so when pricing apples to apples make sure that you are looking at configuring just a single CPU against the DS10. On a personal note, I still use a DS10 for some day-to-day work because it has the ability to compile for Alpha and use internal tools to cross compile for Itanium. But I also have a rx2620 with the "office friendly" packaging (pedestal mount and firmware that runs the fans quieter)... The rx2620 (dual CPU) has been dependable, quieter than my DS10, has more storage, and as one might expect is much, much faster than the old DS10. The one thing missing on the Integrity systems is a VGA console (VMS supports the graphics under X11, but not booting from the console) - that will be fixed in the next release later this year. In short, while I still love Alpha - if I didn't have the need to continue to build and test code on both architectures - I would have switched to the Integrity system already and retired my DS10. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 19:50:47 +0000 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: How much will Integrity cost? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: tadamsmar [mailto:tadamsmar@yahoo.com] > Sent: August 6, 2007 3:20 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: How much will Integrity cost? > > On Aug 6, 2:36 pm, JF Mezei wrote: > > General question: > > > > On the day Alpha was murdered, Compaq announmced some initiative > "Alpha > > retain Trust" which was meant to reduce the pain induced by Capellas > > when he murdered Alpha and force people to buy that unwanted IA64 > > contraption. > > > > Would someone like tadasmar with DS10s have any sort of automatic > > discount because he is downgrading from Alphas to IA64s ? Or was that > > "retain trust" thing just for the few very large customers that > > Compaq/HP actually care about ? > > > > What about licenses ? How would one, who doesn't have an HP rep, go > > about finding out how much it would cost to move from Alpha to some > IA64 > > boxes ? Or is it assumed everyone just buys new licenes from scratch > ? > > I guess I probably have a rep. But I tend to email the last HP guy > who sent me a quote, and ask him to send me a quote. And I did that > this morning. > > I guess I might get a break on trading in my old licenses. You will definitely get a break on trade-in licenses. A few references: http://licensing.hp.com/swl/view.slm?page=3Dxplasoft HP contacts for questions: http://licensing.hp.com/swl/view.slm;jsessionid=3Daaan-uJS5tjxkytYNC?page= =3Dcontacts Migration planning resources: http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/integrity/alphaplanning.html New licenses practices whitepaper: http://h71028.www7.hp.com/ERC/downloads/4AA0-2321ENW.pdf And as someone else pointed out, with 5 servers, you will no doubt get a be= tter discount ` price than 1 server. The price will vary depending on the discount that the= partner wants to provide you with. Another consideration which may or may not be pertinent - with the better p= erformance on Integrity, you might be able to consolidate to fewer servers (perhaps in sm= all cluster?), hence only 2 or 3 might be required. Course, in many process control enviro= nments, performance is not that much of an issue, but something to consider anyway. And in case you think mission critical environments are not moving to Integ= rity, check out this brochure and the quote: http://h71028.www7.hp.com/ERC/downloads/5982-9831EN.pdf "We recently ported the complete software of the Eurex Exchange, which cons= ists currently of 5 million lines of source code, to OpenVMS on HP Integrity servers. We a= re currently porting the Xetra cash market software as well. OpenVMS on Integrity server= s will enable us to introduce a new infrastructure with the same operating system in a co= st-efficient manner." - Gerd Koebschall, Director, Head of Department XETRA/EUREX Operations Deut= sche B=F6rse Systems AG Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT) OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 21:26:12 GMT From: "John Wallace" Subject: Re: How much will Integrity cost? Message-ID: "tadamsmar" wrote in message news:1186424049.801873.87530@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com... > On Aug 6, 1:38 pm, "Ken Robinson" wrote: > > On 8/6/07, tadamsmar wrote: > > > > > On Aug 6, 12:10 pm, "Tom Linden" wrote: > > > > On Mon, 06 Aug 2007 08:55:41 -0700, tadamsmar wrote: > > > > > I would need 5 low end Integrity systems to replace 5 DS10s. > > > > > > Just curious, what is the rationale for replacing? > > > > > I only have a rationale for planning. I committed to doing some > > > planning and the deadline looms. > > > > > The rationale for pricing in the plan is to be able give our client > > > heads up on a potential big expense in the future. > > > > I would start at the HP Enterprise Configurator page > > which will help you with > > your configuration and gives you prices at the end. It uses > > Javascript, so it won't work if you have Javascript disabled on your > > browser. The prices given are before any discounts you might get. > > > > Ken > > I did try that. I tried to guess what the lowest end system was. > > I ended up with rack mounted 15K system. > > But, other web articles seem to indicate that I shold be about to get > a system for something like 5K. > > And, this is a process control application. We have used DS10 > workstations with big X-terminals. So, I was not sure about rack > mounting and how to connect to X-terminals. > > And, I the layered product stuff, in a separate location, was > confusing about. Why is a individual license cheaper that a > workgroup license? > Did not know which to choose. > > Also, the web page was slow, so I did not feel like trying over and > over to find the cheapest configuration. > > Other than that, the configuration tool worked great ;-) > > Anyway I emailed my specs to a HP guy for a quotation. > Planning is good. To fail to plan is to, er, I forget. You mention here that this is a process control application, and in an earlier note you mention that this is for a client. Having worked for some years in the field of "process automation", it is clear that it has different meanings to different people. An important point to note here is that typically there are no "industry standard" benchmarks for process automation. This means that if someone is assuming that Box Z is an appropriate replacement for Box A based on vendor's performance numbers for some entirely unrelated class of application, there is a risk you may be heading for dangerous territory - the land of unhappy clients, which often leads to the land of happy lawyers (which is not a nice place to be). If you are sizing your target machines based on real-world experience of your application or something closely comparable, please accept my apologies for trying to teach you how to suck eggs. But if someone is taking a guess based on vendor benchmarks and other experience of so-called "typical" applications, that guess needs to be validated based on *relevant* application performance before you go too much further down this road. For example, there are classes of "process automation" which get approximately zero benefit from the huge quantities of high speed cache which are at least in part responsible for some of Itanium's performance, because these applications use in-memory databases which are too big to fit in cache, and the vast majority of the data is accessed in a cache-unfriendly way (e.g. read once and not used again till next scan cycle). How much do you know about the performance characteristics of the application as it is today? You'll also have read, perhaps several times, that alignment faults are very expensive on Itanium. A process automation application using in-memory databases (global sections, whatever) for inter-process communication etc *may* require a little more care and attention, depending on its origins, history, and architecture, than some "typical applications" do to (a) get locking right (b) get alignment faults sorted. If this is an application that has already been ported from VAX to Alpha, the people who did that work might be in a good position to comment on these matters. hth jw ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 22:35:47 -0400 From: Robert Deininger Subject: Re: How much will Integrity cost? Message-ID: In article <1186424049.801873.87530@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, tadamsmar wrote: > On Aug 6, 1:38 pm, "Ken Robinson" wrote: > > On 8/6/07, tadamsmar wrote: > > > > > On Aug 6, 12:10 pm, "Tom Linden" wrote: > > > > On Mon, 06 Aug 2007 08:55:41 -0700, tadamsmar > > > > wrote: > > > > > I would need 5 low end Integrity systems to replace 5 DS10s. > > > > > > Just curious, what is the rationale for replacing? > > > > > I only have a rationale for planning. I committed to doing some > > > planning and the deadline looms. > > > > > The rationale for pricing in the plan is to be able give our client > > > heads up on a potential big expense in the future. > > > > I would start at the HP Enterprise Configurator page > > which will help you with > > your configuration and gives you prices at the end. It uses > > Javascript, so it won't work if you have Javascript disabled on your > > browser. The prices given are before any discounts you might get. > > > > Ken > > I did try that. I tried to guess what the lowest end system was. The configurator doesn't have real-world prices. For realistic prices, you'll need a formal quote. The configurator doesn't not offer all available configurations. It's design goal is ease of use (IMHO it failed), not detail or accuracy. For a real order or quote, HP folks would use a different set of tools. > I ended up with rack mounted 15K system. Your best bests for low cost would be either the rx1620 or the rx2660. I recommend the rx2660 for most applications, but there might be cases where the rx1620 could be marginally cheaper. The rx1620 is completely unsuitable for office use. It is too lound, and can't be made quiet. The rx2660 can be configured for rack or pedestal installation. The last time I fought with the configurator, it didn't offer the pedestal option. To get close to the configuration that would work for you, look at the QuickSpecs document for the rx2660. It has nearly complete configuration rules, but no price information. http://h18004.www1.hp.com/products/quickspecs/12698_div/12698_div.HTML If you would be replacing Alpha systems, you should be able to get a big credit for some VMS licenses if you trade them in. Normal terms include an overlap period, when you can run both old and new systems at the same time. I don't know the standard time period for the overlap, but I believe it can be adjusted to meet your migration needs. There is also a way to order VMS Cluster licenses for use during a migration. Even if your Alphas don't have cluster licenses, you may find the migration easier if you cluster the new Integrity systems with the old Alphas. The migration cluster licenses are supposed to be low- or no-cost. CDD is an Oracle product. VAXset (now DECset), C, and Fortran are standard layered products. > But, other web articles seem to indicate that I shold be about to get > a system for something like 5K. I think 5k-7k is possible, if you can get by with a lightly-loaded configuration and the software included in the Foundation Operating Environment (FOE). Your layered products would be on top of that, and Shadowing is a non-trivial price -- but still less expensive than Alpha. Definitely explore license trade-in and migration options. The rx2660 has enough built-in hardware to meet most of your needs: 2 Gbit ethernet ports Built-in SAS controller supporting up to 8 internal disks. There's a single-CPU, single-core option for rx2660 to get the entry price as low as possible. For tape support, you'll need to add a SCSI adapter, most likely the A7173A with 2 ports. There are no internal tape options in this system. > And, this is a process control application. We have used DS10 > workstations with big X-terminals. So, I was not sure about rack > mounting and how to connect to X-terminals. X-terminal support should be nearly identical to Alpha. > And, I the layered product stuff, in a separate location, was > confusing about. Why is a individual license cheaper that a > workgroup license? > Did not know which to choose. > > Also, the web page was slow, so I did not feel like trying over and > over to find the cheapest configuration. > > Other than that, the configuration tool worked great ;-) I think it's a piece of junk. So does everyone I know inside HP. > Anyway I emailed my specs to a HP guy for a quotation. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 22:40:02 -0400 From: Robert Deininger Subject: Re: How much will Integrity cost? Message-ID: In article <1186424294.110608.68260@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, tadamsmar wrote: > I meant big monitors not big X-terminals. I guess we could use X- > terminals. But I would like to use my existing monitors if we did not > wait to upgrade for many years. I have a couple of new monitors. The rx2600 has 1 built-in graphics port. I don't know the maximum graphics resolution, but it is somewhere in the documentation for the server. You also mentioned process automation. Do you have any oddball adapters in your Alphas? None of the Integrity servers support 5 volt PCI cards; you can only use 3.3V or universal cards. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 11:31:59 -0700 From: tadamsmar Subject: HP still selling Alphas? Message-ID: <1186425119.441404.278380@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> I thought they quit, but the HP configuration tool still allows you to spec them. I guess they stopped building them but still sell them? Is 2012 the earliest date when hardware/software support could end? Looks like they are giving 2 year notice on the end of support. Correct? Does that mean that they would have to announce in 2010 if 2012 was the confirmed end date? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 15:57:12 -0400 From: "FredK" Subject: Re: HP still selling Alphas? Message-ID: "tadamsmar" wrote in message news:1186425119.441404.278380@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com... >I thought they quit, but the HP configuration tool still allows you to > spec them. > > I guess they stopped building them but still sell them? > > Is 2012 the earliest date when hardware/software support could end? > > Looks like they are giving 2 year notice on the end of support. > Correct? Does that mean that they would have to announce in 2010 if > 2012 was the confirmed end date? > Just like the VAX, when planning EOL you poll the customers who are buying significant hardware and ask them what they may need beyond the official date that the systems are still on the order system. Some customers will actually pre-pay for specific components to be assured that they can still get a specific system for a specific period of time. So at some point there was an EOL buy of components (like the EV7) just like there was on VAX based on historical knowledge that even after the end of sales, that some customers might continue to require a particular system. To buy them is some type of sales exception process, and when they run out of parts that are not already spoken for - then there are no more. Of course, then things like refurbished systems and parts will kick in for as long as there is the ability to do it and some amount of demand. We are still supporting VAX a hundred years (OK - not a hundred, but you get the point) after they stopped making them... as time goes by - it can become almost impossible to even support a system from a HW perspective. A customer once complained to me that we built are systems too well. That because they worked so reliably for so long that *their* end user kept putting off and putting off upgrading. Which was bad for them (and in the end bad for us too). Unless you are planning on freezing your Alpha code forever, I would consider looking at Integrity - so you don't find yourself one day like the guy who expects V8.3 on a VAX780. Because while I expect us to support Alpha for a very long time, technology changes will eventually leave you trapped. Perhaps not this year, or even 2012... but sometime. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 13:03:26 -0700 From: ultradwc@gmail.com Subject: Re: HP still selling Alphas? Message-ID: <1186430606.907081.63350@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> On Aug 6, 3:57 pm, "FredK" wrote: > > Unless you are planning on freezing your Alpha code forever, I would > consider looking at Integrity - so you don't find yourself one day like the > guy who expects V8.3 on a VAX780. Because while I expect us to support > Alpha for a very long time, technology changes will eventually leave you > trapped. Perhaps not this year, or even 2012... but sometime. that isn't the IBM model ... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 21:43:05 -0400 From: Robert Deininger Subject: Re: HP still selling Alphas? Message-ID: In article <1186425119.441404.278380@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, tadamsmar wrote: > I thought they quit, but the HP configuration tool still allows you to > spec them. > > I guess they stopped building them but still sell them? Still building them and selling them. If you want new Alpha systems, just contact HP and ask for them. The end-of-life status means that HP can't promise to provide every possible system, configuration, or option. But almost everything is still available in reasonable quantities. The longer you wait, the less likely you'll be able to get exactly what you need. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 23:23:07 GMT From: "Robert Jarratt" Subject: Re: Installing VMS without a bootable CD-ROM drive Message-ID: Thanks for all the suggestions, I am going to investigate SCSI cables/termination etc. further when my family allows me the time. I will report back. Regards Rob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 19:34:05 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Installing VMS without a bootable CD-ROM drive Message-ID: <46B7BDFD.404218E6@spam.comcast.net> Robert Jarratt wrote: > > Thanks for all the suggestions, I am going to investigate SCSI > cables/termination etc. further when my family allows me the time. I will > report back. I can relate to that... -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 12:41:36 -0700 From: tadamsmar Subject: Integrity Workstations? Message-ID: <1186429296.750164.213360@b79g2000hse.googlegroups.com> Can you get Integrity configured as a workstation with a monitor? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 12:52:18 -0700 From: urbancamo Subject: Re: Integrity Workstations? Message-ID: <1186429938.893236.119480@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> tadamsmar wrote: > Can you get Integrity configured as a workstation with a monitor? The RX2660 server is available in an Office Friendly Server (OFS) configuration. It support a display of upto 1920x1200 resolution via an inbuilt graphics card and VGA port. You can order a pedestal kit which consists of two sides, a top and bottom which encase the 19" rackmount server enclosure it comes with and makes it look like a tower. I'm sure HP sell a variety of TFTs... The OFS version is quieter than the standard rackmount version, but I believe that it still contains two redundant power supplies. Turn on and forget I would have thought. I just can't make up my mind whether to get one or not :) Search for 'RX2660' in this group for more information... Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 16:08:55 -0400 From: "FredK" Subject: Re: Integrity Workstations? Message-ID: "urbancamo" wrote in message news:1186429938.893236.119480@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com... > > tadamsmar wrote: >> Can you get Integrity configured as a workstation with a monitor? > > The RX2660 server is available in an Office Friendly Server (OFS) > configuration. It support a display of upto 1920x1200 resolution via > an inbuilt graphics card and VGA port. > > You can order a pedestal kit which consists of two sides, a top and > bottom which encase the 19" rackmount server enclosure it comes with > and makes it look like a tower. I'm sure HP sell a variety of TFTs... > > The OFS version is quieter than the standard rackmount version, but I > believe that it still contains two redundant power supplies. Turn on > and forget I would have thought. > > I just can't make up my mind whether to get one or not :) > Go ahead GET ONE! I have a rx2620 and have to wait a while before whining that I need a rx2660... so I have to borrow time on someone elses over the network. But as we start to support the iLO capabilities - I may be able to finagle one ;-) FWIW - I have the 1920x1200 LCD screen on my rx2620 system. Nice. But on my other system I have two 1280x1024 LCD panels configured using Panaramics. If I could just convince someone that I *need* three more of the big panels ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 13:49:03 -0700 From: urbancamo Subject: Re: Integrity Workstations? Message-ID: <1186433343.000972.45670@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com> FredK wrote: > > Go ahead GET ONE! > > I have a rx2620 and have to wait a while before whining that I need a > rx2660... so I have to borrow time on someone elses over the network. But > as we start to support the iLO capabilities - I may be able to finagle one > ;-) Did you see my post to this group in the 'Linux on Integrity' discussion? I need to decide between an integrity and a DL380 which would be a dual, quad core xeon system. Clearly performance would be much higher. > > FWIW - I have the 1920x1200 LCD screen on my rx2620 system. Nice. But on > my other system I have two 1280x1024 LCD panels configured using Panaramics. > If I could just convince someone that I *need* three more of the big panels > ;-) I have two 19" 1280x1024 panels at work. They were bought when anything over 19" was three times the price of two panels. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 15:54:08 -0700 From: Rich Jordan Subject: Re: Integrity Workstations? Message-ID: <1186440848.191919.185850@q3g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On Aug 6, 4:25 pm, Bob Gezelter wrote: > On Aug 6, 3:41 pm, tadamsmar wrote: > > > Can you get Integrity configured as a workstation with a monitor? > > tadamsmar, > > The key is that it is a "small server with a graphics card". Looks, > tastes, and feels like a workstation, but it is not officially a > "workstation". > > If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and smells like a duck, it > is probably a duck. > > - Bob Gezelter,http://www.rlgsc.com Except that generally anything called "server" costs more for software and licensing than anything called "workstation"; hardware can be a wash due to the expected higher end graphics controller and display. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 17:45:21 -0700 From: "AlexNOSPAMDaniels@themail.co.uk" Subject: Re: Integrity Workstations? Message-ID: <1186447521.576325.198080@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com> On 6 Aug, 22:25, Bob Gezelter wrote: > The key is that it is a "small server with a graphics card". Looks, > tastes, and feels like a workstation, but it is not officially a > "workstation". > > If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and smells like a duck, it > is probably a duck. I'd hardly say it "talks like a duck". HP have qualified the AD317A sound card with rx2660 hardware, but the work has not been done for use with VMS or at least it's not qualified anyway. Certainly not a true workstation. Alex ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 21:40:09 -0400 From: Robert Deininger Subject: Re: Integrity Workstations? Message-ID: In article <1186447521.576325.198080@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>, "AlexNOSPAMDaniels@themail.co.uk" wrote: > On 6 Aug, 22:25, Bob Gezelter wrote: > > The key is that it is a "small server with a graphics card". Looks, > > tastes, and feels like a workstation, but it is not officially a > > "workstation". > > > > If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and smells like a duck, it > > is probably a duck. > > I'd hardly say it "talks like a duck". > > HP have qualified the AD317A sound card with rx2660 hardware, but the > work has not been > done for use with VMS or at least it's not qualified anyway. > > Certainly not a true workstation. VMS products managers have detected almost NO demand for sound support on VMS. If there was demand, the work would likely bubble up toward the top of the list. Maybe there are folks who want sound support, and they are just shy about letting the product managers know about it. As it is, there are many things that customers are clamoring for WAY before sound support. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 22:07:19 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Integrity Workstations? Message-ID: <1eaa3$46b7d3dc$cef8887a$29562@TEKSAVVY.COM> Robert Deininger wrote: > VMS products managers have detected almost NO demand for sound support > on VMS. If there was demand, the work would likely bubble up toward the > top of the list. It is pointless at this time to even debate. I will just say "LAME EXCUSE" Just admit that HP has no intentions of pursuing VMS and be done with it. At this point in time, it is absolutely pointless to even try to pretend that HP really sees a future in VMS. Your excuse is even lamer since Patrick Moreau has stated some time ago that lack of sound support on VMS-IA64 would force him to either stay on Alpha or move to a different platform, and his applications are pretty important. But I guess VMS management only looks at new england customers when making decisions on which features to cut next. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 19:22:24 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Integrity Workstations? Message-ID: On Mon, 06 Aug 2007 19:07:19 -0700, JF Mezei wrote: > Robert Deininger wrote: >> VMS products managers have detected almost NO demand for sound support >> on VMS. If there was demand, the work would likely bubble up toward >> the top of the list. > > It is pointless at this time to even debate. I will just say > "LAME EXCUSE" > > > Just admit that HP has no intentions of pursuing VMS and be done with > it. At this point in time, it is absolutely pointless to even try to > pretend that HP really sees a future in VMS. > > > > Your excuse is even lamer since Patrick Moreau has stated some time ago > that lack of sound support on VMS-IA64 would force him to either stay on > Alpha or move to a different platform, and his applications are pretty > important. But I guess VMS management only looks at new england > customers when making decisions on which features to cut next. That is wrong, they actually disembowel a chcken -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 16:18:38 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <1186442318.376946.4870@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> On Aug 6, 11:12 am, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > In article <1186363007.921609.27...@b79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes:>On Aug 5, 7:55 pm, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > >> In article <1186334184.382451.138...@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > > >> >[...] > [...discussion about the document about Israeli "racism" omitted, but referred to below...] > > >> >The document demonstrates its severe one-sideness with this comment: > > >> >"However, by means of the 1947-48 war, Israel took over even greater > >> >expanses of land and forcibly expelled about 750,000 Palestinians. > >> >This travesty was the basis for the official founding of the Israeli > >> >state in 1948." > > >> >Hello? Israel didn't start this war. And it is by no means a settled > >> >fact of history about these expulsions. Could it be that some P's were > >> >expelled because they were fighting against the Israelis? And why were > >> >so many P's (or Arabs) NOT expelled? > > >> >This makes me doubt everything else in the article. It is only one > >> >person's view and it is clearly not a neutral view. > > >> >I find this interesting quote from Wikipedia. Yeah, it's Wikipedia, > >> >but it's at least as good at the interview you referecned: > > >> >Israel, the US and the Soviets called the Arab states' entry into > >> >Palestine illegal aggression, UN secretary general Trygve Lie > >> >characterized it as "the first armed aggression which the world had > >> >seen since the end of the [Second World] War." China broadly backed > >> >the Arab claims. Both sides increased their manpower over the > >> >following months, but the Israeli advantage grew steadily as a result > >> >of the progressive mobilization of Israeli society and the influx of > >> >an average of 10,300 immigrants each month. > > >> Of course the Arab countries going to war to destroy the newly created Israel > >> was an agression - at least as defined by the UN charter (they were invading a > >> sovereign nation). > >> As far as the Arabs were concerned the very act of creating Israel was an > >> agression that was perpetrated by the UN. > > >Well, if the Wikipedia article is right, even the Soviets (not > >normally Jew-friendly, BTW) considered the Arab invasion into the > >fledgling Israel to be _illegal_ aggression. > > Can you not read - I agreed that it was an agression as defined by the UN > charter. If you want I'll say it's an illegal agression as defined by the UN > charter. Any invasion of a sovereign nation is an illegal agression as defined > by the UN charter unless sanctioned by the UN. OK, maybe I missed it. But you seemed to be saying it was justified. > That doesn't alter the Arabs view that the UN action in creating Israel was > also an agression. Why? It was under British rule at the time. That didn't bother them. ALL of it was under British rule. But if half of it is under Jewish rule, suddenly it's a problem. > >> As I said before how would you react if an outside power such as the UN > >> suddenly gave your home to foreign refugees ? Again a gross oversimplification. The US now has millions of illegal immigrants and many in our gov't want to give them amnesty which will only encourage millions more to come. But I certainly don't advocate killing any of them. > >First of all, this is a gross oversimplification of what happened. I > >don't know all of what happened, but I know there is a lot more to it > >than you mention in your question. > > The only simplification is that I did not mention - as I have in another post - > the mass migration of Jewish refugees which started, in relatively few > numbers and peacefully , in the 1880s under the ottoman empire. This then > continued but turned into a flood under the British Mandate - particularly in > the 30s and illegally during the second world war - which severely upset the > local arab population. > > So for your benefit I will rephrase the question :- > > How would you react if your government allowed in tons of refugees to your home > state and then when their numbers had grown sufficiently high the UN decided > that your home state should now be split in two with half being given as a > homeland for these refugees and any of their distant relatives who wished to > come in the future ? It wasn't their home state. It was under British rule. And if I were an Arab or Palestinian under such a situation I'd be thrilled just to have a state. Remember, the P's NEVER had their own state. If they would have accepted the partition, then they would have had their "home state". > > >Regardless, I seriously doubt I'd call for an invasion if I were in > >that position. > > I already told you what I would expect with my picture of what Britain and > the republic of ireland would have done if the UN had planted a refugee > nation in Northern Ireland. Damn right I would have expected them to invade. > I cannot seriously imagine that the US population would allow some > international body or collection of nations to just setup a nation state on > US mainland territory. Again, the big difference is that your analogies refer to people who already had their own soverign nations. The P's did not. They would have if they would have accepted the partition. The P's in Israel proper today are probably far better off than the P's in the WB and Gaza. > >And why didn't the Arabs invade Palestine to capture it back from > >Britain? > > Britain was an imperial power still pretty much at the height of it's power > after world war I. The other arab nations were themselves newly created by the > British and French by their carving up of the ottoman empire. The new rulers of > these arab states were handpicked by the British and French. > In some cases the populations in these countries were beginning to form > nationalist movements aiming to kick the british and french out of their > countries and topple handpicked rulers but achieving those aims was far in the > future - and by then Britain's imperial power would be fading fast. I think it would have been a net gain for all involved if the P's and neighboring Arab states had accepted the partition. So you admit it's an illegal aggression yet you continue to try to justify it. > David Webb > Security team leader > CCSS > Middlesex University AEF ------------------------------ Date: 6 Aug 2007 23:52:58 GMT From: healyzh@aracnet.com Subject: Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: Paul Raulerson wrote: > I just went to all the trouble of pulling the same message down, from a > blasted newsgroup no less, under SuSE 10.2 using tin and guess what? It > formatted just fine - even under a text based console window. Same under > Firefox. > Could it be you are using an ancient version or something? > -Paul Hmmm, it is decidedly long in the tooth, but I wouldn't call it ancient. tin 1.6.0 release 20030714 ("Vatersay") [UNIX] (c) Copyright 1991-2003 Zane ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 20:02:35 -0500 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: RE: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: <006401c7d88e$a4bb9160$ee32b420$@com> I've got 1.8.1-11 on here, but that shouldn't make that much difference, I would think. The only thing that I can think of might be the news server; I just used the local SuddenLink server, which is not one of the best ones. -Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: healyzh@aracnet.com [mailto:healyzh@aracnet.com] > Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 6:53 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? > > Paul Raulerson wrote: > > I just went to all the trouble of pulling the same message down, from > a > > blasted newsgroup no less, under SuSE 10.2 using tin and guess what? > It > > formatted just fine - even under a text based console window. Same > under > > Firefox. > > > Could it be you are using an ancient version or something? > > -Paul > > Hmmm, it is decidedly long in the tooth, but I wouldn't call it > ancient. > > tin 1.6.0 release 20030714 ("Vatersay") [UNIX] (c) Copyright 1991-2003 > > Zane ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2007 16:40:06 +1200 From: Malcolm Smeaton Subject: RE: LDAP tools for VMS Message-ID: <6978207@MVB.SAIC.COM> Hello Ian > -----Original Message----- > From: IanMiller [mailto:gxys@uk2.net] > Sent: Monday, 6 August 2007 9:32 p.m. > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: LDAP tools for VMS >=20 > have you looked at the enterprise directory server layered product > from HP? No I have not. But now I will. Thank you. -- Malcolm > IIRC you do not need an extra licence for it. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2007 17:02:08 +1200 From: Malcolm Smeaton Subject: RE: LDAP tools for VMS Message-ID: <6978211@MVB.SAIC.COM> Hello Kerry > > > > Does anyone know where I can get hold of some useful LDAP utilities for > > VMS? > > > > For example ldapsearch, ldapadd, ldapmodify, ldapdelete > > >=20 >=20 > Malcolm - >=20 > Just curious, but perhaps you could expand on what you will be looking to > accomplish > with the tools? We have an OpenLDAP Directory Server but a significant part of our user account management for staff and students is processed on VMS and distributed to other platforms - including the OpenLDAP server. It would be very handy if we could use the above tools to access the directory server directly from VMS, especially for things like testing. We have already written some modules using the C language application programming interface (API) for LDAP, but if the above tools are already available from VMS DCL why bother trying to write these ourselves. >=20 > Reason for asking is that if the intent is to establish a unified user > accounts > environment with other platforms, then you might be interested in the > following > LDAP V3 compliant product from Process Software: >=20 > http://www.process.com/VMSauth/index.html (uses Multinet or TCPware or HP > TCPIP services) That's interesting. Once upon a time we used Innosoft IDDS LDAP directory server on Sun Solaris, and a good one it was too until they sold it to Sun and it became unsupported. We would still be using it were it not for the fact we had no success increasing the licence count. I understand a VMS version was also made available but we did not get that. I'll have a look at VMSauth and HP LDSU. Thanks, Malcolm Smeaton >=20 > Extract from data sheet:(supports Active Directory, OpenLDAP etc) >=20 > "Many organizations are employing LDAP as a centralized repository for > storing > user information because it simplifies administration: additions and > changes to > permissions are made only once in a directory and are immediately > available to > all authorized users, directory-enabled applications, systems, and other > devices. > By keeping the authentication centralized in a directory, a security > administrator > will always know who is accessing network resources and can define user/ > group-based policies to control access. The VMS Authentication Module > makes > use of an LDAP directory through a login request for access. The username, > password, and all data can be encrypted via TLS between the OpenVMS system > and any LDAP compliant directory server to protect a user's identity from > being > compromised. To ease administration, the VMS User Authorization File may > be synced with the LDAP server password. An administrator can also specify > a > login request should perform multiple searches on multiple servers." >=20 > http://www.process.com/VMSauth/OpenVMS%20Auth%20Module.pdf (data sheet) >=20 >=20 > If directory synching is what you are looking for, then HP LDSU might also > be > an option: >=20 > http://h20219.www2.hp.com/services/cache/11212-0-0-225-121.html >=20 > Regards >=20 >=20 > Kerry Main > Senior Consultant > HP Services Canada > Voice: 613-592-4660 > Fax: 613-591-4477 > kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom > (remove the DOT's and AT) >=20 > OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. >=20 >=20 ------------------------------ Date: 7 Aug 2007 00:45:38 GMT From: healyzh@aracnet.com Subject: Re: Linux (was Re: How many people here use Itanium w VMS) Message-ID: Tom Linden wrote: > On Mon, 06 Aug 2007 07:51:27 -0700, urbancamo > wrote: > > I'd like the option to be able to run OpenVMS, although I can't > > justify this in business terms at the time. Does anyone think there is > > a market out there for bringing Open Source programs to OpenVMS and > > supporting them? This might be a valid revenue stream... > I might pay a couple of C's for latest version of (X)emacs:-) Does this mean that it is time to setup a "Bounty" fund like a couple of the obscure Open Source OS's have (AROS is one of the big ones doing this, and I think the BeOS clone). If I understand how it works correctly, basically people chip in money towards a bounty, then when the pot gets big enough someone accepts the assignment, then if they succeed within the aloted time they get the money. I'd be interested in the latest version of *xemacs* running on OpenVMS. I'm not that fond of plain emacs, for that matter, I'm not that fond of xemacs, but I spend a *lot* of time using it to write software. Zane ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2007 02:41:29 GMT From: John Santos Subject: Re: Maximum Java Heap Size/OpenVMS Java Experiences? Message-ID: P. Sture wrote: > In article <1185990365.187329.66340@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, > sean@obanion.us wrote: > > >>Out of sheer curiosity and thinking it would be easy, I tried to find >>in the on-line documentation what the current maximum WSMAX value is, >>since it looks like that's the next limit. > > > If you do: > > $ MCR SYSGEN SHOW WSMAX > > you get something like this (taken on V8.3, Alpha) > > > Parameter Name Current Default Min. Max. Unit Dynamic > -------------- ------- ------- ------- ------- ---- ------- > WSMAX 393216 8192 1024 134217728 Pagelets > internal value 24576 512 64 8388608 Pages > > $ write sys$output 134217728/2048 ! max in megabytes > 65536 > > i.e. 64 GB, for Alpha running V8.3. You should repeat this on Itanium > to check that SYSGEN uses the same maximum value there. > On I64 V8.3: $ mcr sysgen show wsmax Parameter Name Current Default Min. Max. Unit Dynamic -------------- ------- ------- ------- ------- ---- ------- WSMAX 1089536 131072 16384 134217728 Pagelets internal value 68096 8192 1024 8388608 Pages Same maximum, but much higher default and min values. "Current" value came from AUTOGEN with feedback, AFAIK. > Or did I miss something in your question? > -- John Santos Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 05:03:24 +0100 From: paul.beaudoin@hsbc.com Subject: Paul BEAUDOIN/MDBK/HSBC is out of the office. Message-ID: I will be out of the office starting 06/08/2007 and will not return until 10/08/2007. If urgent please call on 07778 033532 . ----------------------------------------- SAVE PAPER - THINK BEFORE YOU PRINT! This E-mail is confidential. It may also be legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you may not copy, forward, disclose or use any part of it. If you have received this message in error, please delete it and all copies from your system and notify the sender immediately by return E-mail. Internet communications cannot be guaranteed to be timely secure, error or virus-free. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2007 03:17:01 GMT From: John Santos Subject: Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: Larry Kilgallen wrote: > In article , moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) writes: > >>John Reagan writes: >> >> >>>There has been only one case with me where a customer had this rather >>>ugly Macro-32 application on Alpha which directly manipulated the FP, >>>SP, etc. to emulate some PDP-11 application. I looked for about 30 >>>minutes and threw up my hands. I recommended they stay on Alpha or go >>>to a VAX emulator product. >> >>(waves!) >> >>It's on a VAX, not an Alpha. The Alpha compiler would have choked on the >>bizarre code just as much as the Itanium compiler does now. > > > That is why TECO is emulated on Alpha. > > My one experience with it on Itanium is that it: > > a) Is still emulated > b) crashes It only crashes when you search for something that isn't there, or move the dot past the end of the buffer. Clearly these are both user errors. :-) :-) :-) P.S. I wouldn't much mind (a) if (b) wasn't also true... :-( -- John Santos Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539 ------------------------------ Date: 6 Aug 2007 17:15:52 -0500 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: Stay on Alpha forever? (that is where the compilers are) Message-ID: In article , "P. Sture" writes: > In article , > Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) wrote: >> Since that is a show stopper, I have not checked to see whether it >> is source compatible with the VAX and Alpha compilers provided by >> DEC/Compaq/HP. Since there was a disconnect in exception handling >> capabilities going from VAX to Alpha, it hardly seems possible that >> a different company's Unix-centric compiler would match either one. > > http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-4.1.2/gnat_ugn_unw/Compatibility-with-Ada-83.html Note that page deals with language compatibility, not compiler features. The GNAT approach is beyond incompatibility with DEC Ada's ACS - it just has no comparable feature. That is a permission given by the Ada 1995 standard, but does nothing for those of us who depend on the ACS approach. For the non-Ada programmers who are still reading, how would you feel about porting to Itanium if you used MMS on VAX and Alpha but could not use MMS (or anything similar) on Itanium ? >> Even if one considered going to the effort of _switching_ to GNAT one >> would still not have an application that would build on all of VAX, >> Alpha and Itanium, because GNAT is not offered for VAX. > > Or take up HP's suggestion of rewriting in C++ > > :-( Exactly. And I note that HP makes a similar suggestion for PL/I users. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 18:43:32 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Suggestion: F$FAO question Message-ID: On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 11:24:12 -0700, Tom Linden wrote: > HAFNER> echo f$fao("!5AS","5") > 5 > > This left-justifies the output. Now looking at the HELP description I > see > > !n<...!> None Left-justifies and blank-fills all > data > represented by the instructions . . . > in > fields n characters wide. > isn't this superfluous? I ask because what I really wanted was > right-justified. > > Too bad we don't have Rexx on VMS. I think that this !nAS directive should be extended as follows !nASL same as !nAS !nASR right justifies -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 19:37:25 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall Message-ID: <46B7BEC5.77E00B5F@spam.comcast.net> Paul Raulerson wrote: > [snip] > TCP is the common denominator of network communications these days, and > systems need really up to date IP stacks and applications. This is perhaps, > one of only two areas where VMS appears weak to me. Well, unlike UN*X, you have a choice of a third-party IP stack instead. See http://www.process.com/ BTW, what's the other area? -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 20:16:48 -0500 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: RE: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall Message-ID: <006501c7d890$a10a1030$e31e3090$@com> That process stuff looks pretty good, are you using it? I'll probably stick with the UCX stuff to avoid licensing costs, and I have to say, the 8.3 TCP stuff is significantly better than the 7.x versions. The other area ix VM; VMS is really still a one virtual machine beastie, which kind of surprises me. Galaxy is perhaps a good start, but nothing like the systems I am used to using. :) There is a third area, but the call is still out on that; it would be Virtual Terminal Services. There are all sorts of ways to make VMS drive different kinds of terminals, but all of them are complex and the terminals or terminal emulators are rather - shall we say - eclectic? Good as word as any I suppose. I can see why most VMS people are driving towards GUI and Web interfaces - even the web seems pretty standardized compared to getting a terminal emulator to work well with everything. And you apparently need relatively expensive third party software to connect a terminal up under DecNet; so I don't know if that makes the NVT more consistent or not. Of course, that could just be my ignorance speaking, but for heaven's sake - applications are not very screen driven under VMS. The ALL-In-One stuff looks pretty nice, but expensive and apparently not available under Itanium. -Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: David J Dachtera [mailto:djesys.no@spam.comcast.net] > Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 7:37 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall > > Paul Raulerson wrote: > > [snip] > > TCP is the common denominator of network communications these days, > and > > systems need really up to date IP stacks and applications. This is > perhaps, > > one of only two areas where VMS appears weak to me. > > Well, unlike UN*X, you have a choice of a third-party IP stack instead. > See > http://www.process.com/ > > BTW, what's the other area? > > -- > David J Dachtera > dba DJE Systems > http://www.djesys.com/ > > Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page > http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ > > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ > > Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: > http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ > > Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: > http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 22:28:28 -0500 From: Jeff Subject: Re: VMS OS req'd progression Message-ID: tadamsmar wrote: > If you are at 7.3.2 what's the best path to Integrity? Make sure you are running the most recent compiler versions on OpenVMS Alpha! In my experience with helping over 100 customers port applications to OpenVMS I64, this is by far the single most important thing you can do. That's because you are going to get the compiler issues out of the way, and do it on a platform with which you are comfortable, before migrating to a new platform. If--as a consequence of upgrading your compilers--you need to upgrade OpenVMS, do it. It won't hurt. For more helpful information, read the OpenVMS porting guide. -Jeff Nelson -OpenVMS Engineering ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 19:39:35 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: YAEQ: Yet Another Editor Question Message-ID: <46B7BF47.37A8509B@spam.comcast.net> Paul Raulerson wrote: > > How does one go about stringing multiple editor commands together and > binding them to say, a function key. EVE(TPU) has a "learn" capability; however, I don't know how to make the learned sequences persist across editor sessions. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 21:47:10 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: YAEQ: Yet Another Editor Question Message-ID: <561d1$46b7cf1f$cef8887a$31594@TEKSAVVY.COM> David J Dachtera wrote: > EVE(TPU) has a "learn" capability; however, I don't know how to make the learned > sequences persist across editor sessions. > learn sequences are saved when you create a section file. (something like SAVE EXTENDED . But section files are big and it will slow up YPU startup unless you install your own section file. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 18:38:18 -0700 From: Sue Subject: Your participation is needed in our 30th Anniversary Celebration Message-ID: <1186450698.943518.88670@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com> Dear Newsgroup, HP and our customers are celebrating 30th Anniversary of OpenVMS this year. We want to include in our celebration web site YOUR best VMS stories. Your funny stories, stories about reliability, longevity, migration and even your mistakes (and what you did about them). You know you are running OpenVMS when... The best thing about OpenVMS is... Because of OpenVMS my business (my employer) is able to... A web form has been set up for this purpose; http://h71000.www7.hp.com/fb_30years.html We plan to post as many of your stories and factoids as possible when we launch our 30th anniversary web pages. For the usual reasons, we do reserve the right to filter all responses. Thanks very much and have lots of fun telling us your stories. Best Regards, The OpenVMS 30th Team ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.429 ************************